Joe Biden America Last

[Glen]

1 minute ago, Leykis101 said:

You have never been through a gun safety course obviously, under NO circumstances or at any time are you not responsible for that gun, Kate Beckinsale would have to go through a safety class, I find it highly humorous you making any type of argument that the person who pulls that trigger isnt responsible for it, that is what is absurd, for this exact reason, that we are arguing about, I know he's one of your idols, but he fucked up and I bet you he is criminally charged for it.

yeah he's one of my idols. You got me 🙄

idiot.

Anyway I'm not arguing about this anymore. I've made my points and I think they are completely valid.

Finding the actor/actress liable for on set H&S creates a very dangerous precedent. 

[Glen]

Now, if he is charged as PRODUCER - that is a different matter and a possibility if it is deemed that he had some form of H&S responsibility.

However as a pure actor I find it hard to prove negligence.

In the US though you never know - crazy things happen in your courts. 

[Leykis101]

 

[Leykis101]

Glen you dont have to call names, you didnt call Alec an idiot and he's the one who didnt check a firearm before he shot someone with it, who's really the idiot?

[Darkstone]

40 minutes ago, Glen said:

agree that he's got to live with it.

However that example you give is not the same imo. 

Let me give an example which is more accurate. In the UK we have something called an MOT where a qualified motor garage services your car once a year and checks it is road worthy.

Once the vehicle has passed you then get in your vehicle and drive. A potentially deadly vehicle which could malfunction. However you would NOT then check the whole vehicle over to ensure the garage had done its job would you. 

No you would just trust the experts or the mechanic and drive your vehicle off.

Ultimately the courts will decide who was negligent but I will be amazed if the actor is found negligent. 

Basically it will be the tech or the director who has ultimate responsibility for health & safety on set.

Finding the actor negligent would set a very dangerous precedent. Where would it end on set? Would they need be checking lighting rigs, film sets, vehicles they are driving,  etc etc .

Yeah, fair enough.

I guess regardless of how we dissect it, it's just a tragic accident all round.

 

[Glen]

41 minutes ago, Leykis101 said:

Glen you dont have to call names, you didnt call Alec an idiot and he's the one who didnt check a firearm before he shot someone with it, who's really the idiot?

you . for thinking an actor is responsible for H&S on a film set.

your only gripe here is that for some reason you hate him cos he is anti guns 

I'm just looking at it logically. 

[Glen]

This pretty much backs up everything I have said :

 

 

Lawyers have speculated that Baldwin will not face charges for firing the prop gun. But as one of the producers of "Rust" he could be liable if the film's producers are deemed to have been negligent.

Launching a defense

However, Kaplan said, a history of on-set mishaps and a clear breach in safety protocol could lead to involuntary manslaughter charges against assistant director David Halls and armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed.

On Tuesday, the producers of "Rust" hired a high-profile law firm to interview cast and crew about the on-set shooting, a move that personal injury lawyer Miguel Custodio sees as the start of an aggressive defense.

"They will try to show that the producers are not liable, that the shooting comes down to aberrations or uncommon behavior displayed by individuals such as the assistant director or armorer," he said. "They will also try to show that the film production did nothing wrong in hiring these two individuals."

"That's very important because the plaintiffs are going to go after these people to show that their careers clearly demonstrate they were not fit to be on this set," he said.

Custodio said the law firm will try to gather evidence that shows that the production company didn't know there were live rounds on set.

A breach in protocol

"If the normal procedures were not followed, then that puts the person who wasn't following it in some kind of legal jeopardy," Kaplan said.

Hollywood productions have adhered to strict safety measures for stunt work for decades. The Industry-Wide Labor-Management Safety Committee has written and distributed safety bulletins on best practices for television and movie productions.

Many of these guidelines were created after the on-set shooting deaths of actors Jon-Erik Hexum in 1984 and Brandon Lee in 1993. Hexum accidentally shot himself while playing with a prop revolver loaded with blank rounds, and Lee was fatally struck after a bullet became lodged in a gun barrel and was discharged by blank rounds.

"The procedure is long established safety protocols that have been in effect for decades in the film industry, and it's very simple," Clay Van Sickle, an armorer with nearly 20 years of experience, told MSNBC on Thursday.

"The armorer is the ultimate responsibility for the weapons on the set," he said, explaining that it is their job to ensure a weapon is "cold," meaning it has no live rounds in it, and to show it to the cast and other crew members.

"There's at least three, and often many more, checks of any weapon that comes on a set, whether it's going hot with blanks or whether it's cold," Van Sickle said.

He said scripted shows shouldn't have live ammo "at all." Van Sickle has worked on reality programs such as "MythBusters" and "Top Shot" as well as dozens of scripted programs. He said there are limited circumstances where live ammo is used on set and that it is usually reserved for special effects shots.

"But on a scripted show like this, live ammo should never, ever be on set, and it's very clear that it was," he said.

There were also reports that the gun that killed Hutchins was used by crew members for live-ammunition target practice. Authorities have not confirmed this detail.

"I frankly think that if you have a movie set where you've got live ammunition that is intermingled with dummy ammunition and intermingled with blanks, that's the kind of activity that rises to the level of gross negligence, and I do believe that someone, ultimately, is going to be charged with at least criminal negligence in this case," Jeff Harris, a trial attorney, said on CNBC's "The News with Shepard Smith" on Wednesday.

Assistant director Halls admitted to investigators he did not inspect all the rounds in the handgun before giving it to Baldwin prior to last Thursday's shooting, a warrant filed Wednesday said.

Halls was fired from the set of "Freedom's Path" in 2019 after a crew member incurred a minor and temporary injury when a gun unexpectedly discharged, a producer on the project told NBC News.

Gutierrez Reed, too, reportedly had a history of not adhering to safety measures. The Wrap reported that the young armorer was the subject of numerous complaints on her previous film just two months earlier after she discharged weapons without warning.

"Ultimately, it's the armorer and the assistant director that have to atone for this," said Kevin Williams, the prop department supervisor at the UCLA School of Theater, Film and Television. "There were obvious breaches in protocol."

[Leykis101]

2 hours ago, Glen said:

you . for thinking an actor is responsible for H&S on a film set.

your only gripe here is that for some reason you hate him cos he is anti guns 

I'm just looking at it logically. 

I just dont see anything logical about it, I dont know how your gun laws are but everywhere ive been it's the same, it doesnt matter what the excuse is, if you use a firearm you are responsible for it, period. no exceptions at all

[heavyharmonies]

Out in the real world, whoever is holding and discharging the firearm is 100% responsible, accountable, and liable, regardless of "actor", "producer", or "expert" status or who else was supposedly responsible for checking anything.

However, in Hollywood where celebrities are king and people can introduce multimillion-dollar lawfirms and their PR teams into the mix to muddy the waters and taint any prospective grand jury pool (or sway district attornies deciding whether to file charges), all bets are off.

I predict that no criminal charges are filed against Baldwin (civil charges are a different matter), but if it were you or I that had pulled the trigger, you can bet there would be criminal charges filed, at least as far as negligence is concerned.

[Glen]

3 minutes ago, heavyharmonies said:

Out in the real world, whoever is holding and discharging the firearm is 100% responsible, accountable, and liable, regardless of "actor", "producer", or "expert" status or who else was supposedly responsible for checking anything.

However, in Hollywood where celebrities are king and people can introduce multimillion-dollar lawfirms and their PR teams into the mix to muddy the waters and taint any prospective grand jury pool (or sway district attornies deciding whether to file charges), all bets are off.

I predict that no criminal charges are filed against Baldwin (civil charges are a different matter), but if it were you or I that had pulled the trigger, you can bet there would be criminal charges filed, at least as far as negligence is concerned.

seriously? this is a film set. Read the report above.

Prosecuting the actor would basically destroy the film industry as no 'actor or actress' would assume that responsibility on set through fear of recrimination.

There are designated people in these controlled conditions who are responsible for H&S - that is what they are paid for.

the actors / actresses are paid to learn their lines & act. 

[Glen]

26 minutes ago, Leykis101 said:

I just dont see anything logical about it, I dont know how your gun laws are but everywhere ive been it's the same, it doesnt matter what the excuse is, if you use a firearm you are responsible for it, period. no exceptions at all

out in the real world yes. on a film set, no.

[heavyharmonies]

I never realized that an actor's SAG card was automagically also a get out of jail free card. Who knew?

There's more than one culpable party here, but that INCLUDES Baldwin. He doesn't get a free pass.

[Glen]

13 minutes ago, heavyharmonies said:

I never realized that an actor's SAG card was automagically also a get out of jail free card. Who knew?

There's more than one culpable party here, but that INCLUDES Baldwin. He doesn't get a free pass.

so do you consider actors or actresses are responsible for H&S on set? 

Do you also think they are qualified to carry out such duties? 

Or do you think they rely on the film crew to ensure that EVERY aspect of the film set is safe for production purposes. 

Or is that too much like common sense

 

[CureTheSane]

Kinda with Glen here.
You'd expect that there is a range of people who are responsible for potentially dangerous items like this.
You'd also think that by the time it gets to an actor, it is 100% safe for them to click it, drop it, throw it etc.

Even if there should be some responsibility on the person handling the weapon, that would mean that the weapon would have to be able to used in that way (I would have assumed that all prop guns on set cannot fire bullets - go figure if they allow real guns on set - that's just weird)
Also, you'd think that if the above is so, that there would be some standard in place as to protocols. Do actors generally check that prop guns aren't loaded? 

[Dead Planet]

During the course of a film or tv series, an actor may have guns handed to them a dozen times a day and hundreds of times throughout the filming schedule and I would not expect everyone of them to stop the film and check the guns personally....that would completely slow down the production to an unreasonable extent....that is why you have armorers on the set, they ensure the guns are safe and as an actor you should be able to put your trust in them.....as for Baldwin, as an actor I do not see him as responsible for this...as a producer on the other hand, I do see him as at least partially responsible...and while they may all get away with criminal responsibility by blaming each other for what happened , they will not escape paying financially in civil court.....

[Metal T]

5 hours ago, Glen said:

so do you consider actors or actresses are responsible for H&S on set? 

Do you also think they are qualified to carry out such duties? 

Or do you think they rely on the film crew to ensure that EVERY aspect of the film set is safe for production purposes. 

Or is that too much like common sense

 

He said there was plenty of blame to go around,whats the problem with that logic?

[Metal T]

On 10/29/2021 at 12:38 PM, Glen said:

So when they hand Kate Beckinsale a gun 

Mine would go off...

 

[Glen]

1 hour ago, Dead Planet said:

During the course of a film or tv series, an actor may have guns handed to them a dozen times a day and hundreds of times throughout the filming schedule and I would not expect everyone of them to stop the film and check the guns personally....that would completely slow down the production to an unreasonable extent....that is why you have armorers on the set, they ensure the guns are safe and as an actor you should be able to put your trust in them.....as for Baldwin, as an actor I do not see him as responsible for this...as a producer on the other hand, I do see him as at least partially responsible...and while they may all get away with criminal responsibility by blaming each other for what happened , they will not escape paying financially in civil court.....

this ^^^^

The only way this comes back on Baldwin is as producer.

But even that's pushing it. They would have to prove negligence.

And if they have the proper people in place that would be difficult to prove in court.

One of the guys involved has already admitted that he didn't check the gun. 

[Glen]

2 hours ago, CureTheSane said:

Kinda with Glen here.
You'd expect that there is a range of people who are responsible for potentially dangerous items like this.
You'd also think that by the time it gets to an actor, it is 100% safe for them to click it, drop it, throw it etc.

Even if there should be some responsibility on the person handling the weapon, that would mean that the weapon would have to be able to used in that way (I would have assumed that all prop guns on set cannot fire bullets - go figure if they allow real guns on set - that's just weird)
Also, you'd think that if the above is so, that there would be some standard in place as to protocols. Do actors generally check that prop guns aren't loaded? 

I think you can have real guns on set but they should go through a load of checks before being placed in the hand of the actor/actress. 

[auslander]

It's a terrible accident. Even though Baldwin is a terrible human being I can't join in on the condemnation. Sometimes people die from terrible accidents and I hope a generous settlement is provided to the victim's family. Meanwhile an investigation should reveal what went wrong and how to try and prevent it from happening again.

[Leykis101]

So it's the same thing on a porno set, if G-Off has aids, and I do a seen with him and contract aids, who's at fault for the aids?

[Glen]

6 hours ago, Leykis101 said:

So it's the same thing on a porno set, if G-Off has aids, and I do a seen with him and contract aids, who's at fault for the aids?

you would be at fault.

However if the director handed you a massive dildo saying it had been sterilised and you then used that dildo and it infected G-off you wouldn't be at fault, the director would be.

Glad we've finally cleared this up. 🙄

it's scene by the way

 

[CureTheSane]

16 hours ago, Glen said:

I think you can have real guns on set but they should go through a load of checks before being placed in the hand of the actor/actress. 

Real guns on a movie set is weird to me.

[AlphaMale]

On 10/31/2021 at 4:02 AM, Glen said:

you would be at fault.

However if the director handed you a massive dildo saying it had been sterilised and you then used that dildo and it infected G-off you wouldn't be at fault, the director would be.

Glad we've finally cleared this up. 🙄

it's scene by the way

 

Some seen scenes can't be unseen!

[Leykis101]

4 hours ago, AlphaMale said:

Some seen scenes can't be unseen!

Just like some cocks can't be unsucked