The Holiday Spirit

[nyoilers]

I thoroughly enjoy the holiday season and don't understand people who hate Christmas and everything about it.

Now that it's here make the best of it,I say !

If not then remember what the Diceman said about Christmas

[AlphaMale]

Celebrating the birth of something that doesn't exist? Pretty stupid.

[auslander]

I admire atheists level of faith. They have so much more faith than me. Being able to walk around and think everything in existence is an accident with no meaning. It must take a will of steel to just believe so wholeheartedly that all there is to life if a big black hole with nothing but death as the outcome. And to do so with a smile! Gotta love atheists and their incredible faith! Bless 'em.

[Dead Planet]

While I'm in the atheist camp I do not have a problem with most of the people who have faith in God....to each their own...as for Xmas , it is a holiday and should be about family and if religion is a necessary part of it for you, then so be it.....

[Geoff]

14 hours ago, auslander said:

I admire atheists level of faith. They have so much more faith than me. Being able to walk around and think everything in existence is an accident with no meaning. It must take a will of steel to just believe so wholeheartedly that all there is to life if a big black hole with nothing but death as the outcome. And to do so with a smile! Gotta love atheists and their incredible faith! Bless 'em.

Haha. Been decades since I had any discussions like this on the forum and I definitely do not want to revisit, but as my mind is always ticking over I was actually thinking about stuff the other day. So if we (humans) get a fancy afterlife kickin' it with Jesus and God n' stuff, do animals? When an ant dies, does the ant experience Heaven? Does a dog, or a cat? An elephant? Do all beings experience Heaven (or hell too, I guess, if they didn't follow the gospel?). Or do only humans experience Heaven, and if so, why do animals have a pointless existence but there simply must be something more to a human's life other than being born, living and dying? 

Genuinely curious, compadre. I used to have many discussions with Mark (metalmaniac777) back in the day and we're still best buds and we even made love a few times. I'm sure he doesn't mind me disclosing that. So seriously not having a dig, but I live to learn. 

[auslander]

Only humans were created in the image of God, and most consider that to mean possession of an eternal soul. However, the animals were put on the earth for humans to have dominion and use plus care for them. As for Heaven, we can't know what it will be like, but in my mind it would not be heaven if there were not dogs for me to hang out with, so I expect that yes there will be animals, otherwise how is it heaven for an animal lover?

This view of heaven being in the clouds, wearing robes and playing harps is mostly an atheist's invention to mock what they can't comprehend. To try and explain heaven to an atheist is like trying to describe the sky to someone who has had their face buried in mud their entire lives. It's a rather fruitless and usually thankless task.

I know atheists have their pile of dirt and nothingness to look forward to (lol). Yes, I am aware that atheists have invented this concept of "ascention" through genetic evolution or artificial immortality as a replacement of heaven in your religion, but I'm not sure how atheists rationalise an incorporeal existence in their concept of pointless nothingness. It doesn't bother me either what you atheists believe, I just wish you weren't so arrogant about your nihilistic mindset and cease with the put downs of those who don't share your belief set.

And merry Christmas my pagan friends! I genuinely mean that.

[Geoff]

Hold on soldier, I'm hoping that wasn't aimed at me. I don't think I was putting anyone down, and as far as I know, I'm not an atheist either. I don't actually know. I can't stand all this label rubbish and don't have a label for my thoughts on this stuff. Yes, I believe you are born, you live and you die and that's the end of it. But they're just my thoughts. 

Anyway, why are we talking about Christmas now anyway? Still almost 30 days to go... 

[AlphaMale]

1 hour ago, Geoff said:

 Yes, I believe you are born, you live and you die and that's the end of it. But they're just my thoughts. 

Anyway, why are we talking about Christmas now anyway? Still almost 30 days to go... 

100% spot on. There is no heaven and hell, and nobody comes back to haunt you. That's plain rubbish.

And why December 25th? The supposed deity was born in spring?

Edited November 27, 2021 by AlphaMale

[AlphaMale]

Stephen Hawking said this: “I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers. That is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.”

[AlphaMale]

Some more from Hawking's last book before his death:

"I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science," Hawking, who died in March, wrote. "If you accept, as I do, that the laws of nature are fixed, then it doesn't take long to ask: What role is there for God?"

 

In life, Hawking was a vocal champion of the Big Bang theory — the idea that the universe began by exploding suddenly out of an ultradense singularity smaller than an atom. From this speck emerged all the matter, energy and empty space that the universe would ever contain, and all that raw material evolved into the cosmos we perceive today by following a strict set of scientific laws. To Hawking and many like-minded scientists, the combined laws of gravity, relativity, quantum physics and a few other rules could explain everything that ever happened or ever will happen in our known universe.

 

 

"If you like, you can say the laws are the work of God, but that is more a definition of God than a proof of his existence," Hawking wrote.

 

With the universe running on a scientifically guided autopilot, the only role for an all-powerful deity might be setting the initial conditions of the universe so that those laws could take shape — a divine creator who caused the Big Bang to bang, then stepped back to behold His work.

 

"Did God create the quantum laws that allowed the Big Bang to occur?" Hawking wrote. "I have no desire to offend anyone of faith, but I think science has a more compelling explanation than a divine creator."

 

Hawking's explanation begins with quantum mechanics, which explains how subatomic particles behave. In quantum studies, it's common to see subatomic particles like protons and electrons seemingly appear out of nowhere, stick around for a while and then disappear again to a completely different location. Because the universe was once the size of a subatomic particle itself, it's plausible that it behaved similarly during the Big Bang, Hawking wrote.

 

"The universe itself, in all its mind-boggling vastness and complexity, could simply have popped into existence without violating the known laws of nature," he wrote.

 

That still doesn't explain away the possibility that God created that proton-size singularity, then flipped the quantum- mechanical switch that allowed it to pop. But Hawking says science has an explanation here, too. To illustrate, he points to the physics of black holes — collapsed stars that are so dense, nothing, including light, can escape their pull.

 

Black holes, like the universe before the Big Bang, condense into a singularity. In this ultra-packed point of mass, gravity is so strong that it distorts time as well as light and space. Simply put, in the depths of a black hole, time does not exist.

 

Because the universe also began as a singularity, time itself could not have existed before the Big Bang. Hawking's answer, then, to what happened before the Big Bang is, "there was no time before the Big Bang."

 

"We have finally found something that doesn’t have a cause, because there was no time for a cause to exist in," Hawking wrote. "For me this means that there is no possibility of a creator, because there is no time for a creator to have existed in."

 

This argument will do little to persuade theistic believers, but that was never Hawking's intent. As a scientist with a near-religious devotion to understanding the cosmos, Hawking sought to "know the mind of God" by learning everything he could about the self-sufficient universe around us. While his view of the universe might render a divine creator and the laws of nature incompatible, it still leaves ample space for faith, hope, wonder and, especially, gratitude.

 

"We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe," Hawking concludes the first chapter of his final book, "and for that I am extremely grateful."

 

Originally published on Live Science.

[Leykis101]

On 11/26/2021 at 3:03 PM, auslander said:

I admire atheists level of faith. They have so much more faith than me. Being able to walk around and think everything in existence is an accident with no meaning. It must take a will of steel to just believe so wholeheartedly that all there is to life if a big black hole with nothing but death as the outcome. And to do so with a smile! Gotta love atheists and their incredible faith! Bless 'em.

Perhaps that's cause you think about what we think wrong, an accident has nothing to do with anything, an accident requires there to be a preset intention behind it, no Atheists I know believe it's an accident, you know the only thing Atheists all have in common is we do not subscribe to the myth of the deity, god or higher power, of any kind, this is it, then we are worm food, not all Atheists subscribe to the same meaning or philosophy, we don't all believe in the same science, or anything, I personally feel as though (this might fly over your head even as simple as it is) I believe we are a mathematical equation, everything just happened to line up right and all the elements it took to kick start life, they all happened, look around, look at the universe, everything is dead, life only exists, here, that we know of, and I don't do hypothetical, I also believe life may not be as important as we believe it is, I mean of course we think it's the greatest thing around, cause without it then we don't exist, but you ever thought maybe in the big scheme of things, it's not that relevant, Ive also wondered if it's maybe antiquated in aspect of the universe, maybe life was something primitive, and we are the last, maybe we are the first,

what I do know is as young as 5 yrs old i was dragged to the Mormon church, and I never ever ever believed in any of it, not once, I thought adults were fucking psychos, everything about it sounded suspect from day 1 to a 5 yr old boy, and Ive never seen or met anyone who was dead, lots of people have and they have places for those poor people, I believe it was made up by a bunch of guys, either to fill the vacuum not knowing about shit, or it was made to control the morons, watch Book of Eli, I still celebrate Xmas, it's a holiday, it's the winter solstice, it's a time to be with your family if you have any, if not then it's a time to hang out with friends, it's the biggest consumer spending day, you don't gotta believe in spaghetti monsters in the sky to have a great time at Xmas, just let yourself enjoy it for what it is and not hook some fairy tale to it. 

[auslander]

9 hours ago, Leykis101 said:

Perhaps that's cause you think about what we think wrong, an accident has nothing to do with anything, an accident requires there to be a preset intention behind it, no Atheists I know believe it's an accident, you know the only thing Atheists all have in common is we do not subscribe to the myth of the deity, god or higher power, of any kind, this is it, then we are worm food, not all Atheists subscribe to the same meaning or philosophy, we don't all believe in the same science, or anything, I personally feel as though (this might fly over your head even as simple as it is) I believe we are a mathematical equation, everything just happened to line up right and all the elements it took to kick start life, they all happened, look around, look at the universe, everything is dead, life only exists, here, that we know of, and I don't do hypothetical, I also believe life may not be as important as we believe it is, I mean of course we think it's the greatest thing around, cause without it then we don't exist, but you ever thought maybe in the big scheme of things, it's not that relevant, Ive also wondered if it's maybe antiquated in aspect of the universe, maybe life was something primitive, and we are the last, maybe we are the first,

what I do know is as young as 5 yrs old i was dragged to the Mormon church, and I never ever ever believed in any of it, not once, I thought adults were fucking psychos, everything about it sounded suspect from day 1 to a 5 yr old boy, and Ive never seen or met anyone who was dead, lots of people have and they have places for those poor people, I believe it was made up by a bunch of guys, either to fill the vacuum not knowing about shit, or it was made to control the morons, watch Book of Eli, I still celebrate Xmas, it's a holiday, it's the winter solstice, it's a time to be with your family if you have any, if not then it's a time to hang out with friends, it's the biggest consumer spending day, you don't gotta believe in spaghetti monsters in the sky to have a great time at Xmas, just let yourself enjoy it for what it is and not hook some fairy tale to 

 

I am not here to convince any of you the Way. I believe everyone has the means and now makes their choice as per free will. Yet , isn't it amusing (well it is to me) how fundamentalist atheists are in their certainty. And I guess that is why you are so intolerant to other beliefs. There is no room for doubt in your minds. You feel you know all the answers and that there are no mysteries outside of your understanding. Though you are just a speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant and then believing that is the entire knowledge of the elephant. Good luck with that. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by auslander

[Geoff]

3 hours ago, auslander said:

 

I am not here to convince any of you the Way. I believe everyone has the means and now makes their choice as per free will. Yet , isn't it amusing (well it is to me) how fundamentalist atheists are in their certainty. And I guess that is why you are so intolerant to other beliefs. There is no room for doubt in your minds. You feel you know all the answers and that there are no mysteries outside of your understanding. Though you are just a speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant and then believing that is the entire knowledge of the elephant. Good luck with that. 

My apologies, cob, but didn't Cody say "the only thing Atheists all have in common is we do not subscribe to the myth of the deity, god or higher power, of any kind, this is it, then we are worm food, not all Atheists subscribe to the same meaning or philosophy, we don't all believe in the same science, or anything, I personally feel as though..." Sorry if I misread, but that doesn't really sound like a group that are fundamentalist in their certainty. In fact, none of that really sounded to me how you describe it. 

What does intrigue me, though, is that you acknowledge that we are just a speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant... yet religious folk believe that there's a god out there somewhere and his only concern is whether this speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant follows the gospel or not? And not only this speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant, but every single other speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant that has ever existed? Of the entire universe throughout the entirety of time, all this god really cares about is whether each speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant is following the gospel. Because if not, that speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant is sure as heck going to hell. Sounds like the type of being I'd like to devote my single human life to. 

Sorry dudes, like I say, I'm not an atheist (that I know of), and I'm sure as heck not a religious man. What do you call someone who is just honest enough to admit that I don't have a clue how we started, or why we are, or what will happen when we're dead? And I also believe that no one alive now, or whom has lived before us, has these answers either. Nor will they ever have them. No matter how steadfast someone is in their belief of whatever they believe, no one will ever be able to answer, with 100% certainty, those questions. 

[metalmaniac777]

On 11/27/2021 at 7:33 AM, Geoff said:

I used to have many discussions with Mark (metalmaniac777) back in the day and we're still best buds and we even made love a few times. I'm sure he doesn't mind me disclosing that.

I don't mind at all. That was the only way I could make you say, "Oh God!" without it being blasphemy. 

[Geoff]

19 minutes ago, metalmaniac777 said:

I don't mind at all. That was the only way I could make you say, "Oh God!" without it being blasphemy. 

You brought the man out of me, so many times, easily. 

[nyoilers]

This , like most posts, took a turn for the weird.

I enjoy this time between Thanksgiving and New Years Day -the holiday season for me whether it's Christmas,Hanukkah,Kwanzaa,etc...Christmas gets slammed so that's why I singled it out.(probably because it's commercialized).

I don't care what your beliefs or disbeliefs are-just enjoy this time of year !

[Darkstone]

9 hours ago, auslander said:

 

I am not here to convince any of you the Way. I believe everyone has the means and now makes their choice as per free will. Yet , isn't it amusing (well it is to me) how fundamentalist atheists are in their certainty. And I guess that is why you are so intolerant to other beliefs. There is no room for doubt in your minds. You feel you know all the answers and that there are no mysteries outside of your understanding. Though you are just a speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant and then believing that is the entire knowledge of the elephant. Good luck with that. 

To be fair though mate, these comments could also apply to any adherent of a mainstream organized Religion. 

Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc,etc,etc.

[Leykis101]

9 hours ago, auslander said:

 

I am not here to convince any of you the Way. I believe everyone has the means and now makes their choice as per free will. Yet , isn't it amusing (well it is to me) how fundamentalist atheists are in their certainty. And I guess that is why you are so intolerant to other beliefs. There is no room for doubt in your minds. You feel you know all the answers and that there are no mysteries outside of your understanding. Though you are just a speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant and then believing that is the entire knowledge of the elephant. Good luck with that. 

No I never once claimed I knew any of the answers, didnt you read what I said? I claim one thing, I dont know, read that, I dont know, but unlike most people I dont clip some wacky explanation to it, im fine not knowing, nobody on this planet knows, thats fact, and yes until I have proof my mind is closed, just as closed as yours is to the opposite being the case, I think if anyone is closed minded it's the religious, you dont see many atheists strapping dynamite to themselves and blowing themselves up in the name of nobody, do you?

[Leykis101]

5 hours ago, Geoff said:

You brought the man out of me, so many times, easily. 

Hey thats fucked up shit G-Off, how many times have you told me those same words.

[Leykis101]

24 minutes ago, nyoilers said:

This , like most posts, took a turn for the weird.

I enjoy this time between Thanksgiving and New Years Day -the holiday season for me whether it's Christmas,Hanukkah,Kwanzaa,etc...Christmas gets slammed so that's why I singled it out.(probably because it's commercialized).

I don't care what your beliefs or disbeliefs are-just enjoy this time of year !

what if you believe in autofellatio?

[Darkstone]

9 hours ago, auslander said:

 

I am not here to convince any of you the Way. I believe everyone has the means and now makes their choice as per free will. Yet , isn't it amusing (well it is to me) how fundamentalist Christians are in their certainty. And I guess that is why you are so intolerant to other beliefs. There is no room for doubt in your minds. You feel you know all the answers and that there are no mysteries outside of your understanding. Though you are just a speck upon a speck upon a speck staring at a piece of dirt on the toenail of an elephant and then believing that is the entire knowledge of the elephant. Good luck with that. 

I'm sorry for editing your post mate.

Just making a point.

[heavyharmonies]

Truth be told, those on both ends of the religious spectrum can be pretty intolerant at times. Depending on the issue, I can lean towards either end. Personally, I was raised an agnostic (which is what I believe you would classify yourself as Geoff). There may be "a God" or "Gods" or there might not be, I just don't know. I don't say that there is a supreme deity, nor do I deny the existience of one... if it/they exist, they've not revealed themselves to me.

I personally believe that religious faith (or the equivalent insistence in the lack thereof) is a personal, internal determination. It cannot be taught, persuaded, or beaten into you. Providing lipservice one way or the other while believing otherwise would seemingly defeat the entire purpose, as in the event there IS a supreme being, they would be able to see/hear/determine your actual thoughts and feelings regardless of what you opine publicly.

It may be that in time I will have an epiphany or some life-altering event that will change my perception and thus my faith... or not. Only time will tell. Until then, I believe that there are some very strong tenets of Christianity (and other religions) that are just good concepts to live by... and others that are hypocritical AF. There are times that I think that religous zealotry goes over the top, e.g., the fundamentalist regligios "Right" here in this country, and there are also times where atheists go over the top in their anti-religious zealotry, e.g., lawsuits over a cross or a nativity scene on public/government property. Seriously?

Add to all this the milticultural/diversity shrieking over Christmas trees, the Baby Jesus, and other idiotic whining, and I am more than happy to wish everyone specifically a "Merry Chistmas!" and decidedly *NOT* "Happy Holidays", just to piss those people off.

[PeterS]

It's a fairly simple equation for me. The odds of everything just existing are incredibly small and pretty well impossible. I find the idea that something exists from out of nowhere with the power to create everything even more unlikely. 

Humanity has thousands and thousands of Gods. Why is yours the truth? Every one has a different moral code. Weird that.

Believe what you like. Just don't make laws that all should follow based on interpretation of a moral code from thousands of years ago.

Edited November 29, 2021 by PeterS

[PeterS]

11 minutes ago, heavyharmonies said:

 

Add to all this the milticultural/diversity shrieking over Christmas trees, the Baby Jesus, and other idiotic whining, and I am more than happy to wish everyone specifically a "Merry Chistmas!" and decidedly *NOT* "Happy Holidays", just to piss those people off.

Oh I'm more than happy to do that. It's sooo obvious all cultures base their events around the seasons and they've all stolen from previous cultures. Christmas tree comes from nordic countries and putting food on trees in the middle of winter to feed animals, for example. 

Birth during the darkest nights. Could that in any way possibly symbolise the end of the year and birth of the new year. Of course it does. 

I'm actually fine with 'Christmas' as it's a nice time to spend with family , freinds and have some downtime. Giving and receiving gifts also nice. The word is losing it's religious meaning in Europe even though the clue's in the name. 

 

[auslander]

4 hours ago, Leykis101 said:

No I never once claimed I knew any of the answers, didnt you read what I said? I claim one thing, I dont know, read that, I dont know, but unlike most people I dont clip some wacky explanation to it, im fine not knowing, nobody on this planet knows, thats fact, and yes until I have proof my mind is closed, just as closed as yours is to the opposite being the case, I think if anyone is closed minded it's the religious, you dont see many atheists strapping dynamite to themselves and blowing themselves up in the name of nobody, do you?

No, but I spee plenty of atheists setting up death camps, genocides, gulags and re-education centres. If you want to have a "who killed the most people recently for their beliefs" competition, atheists win hands down.

Also, I notice how atheists always attack Christianity and really give other religions a pass. It's what you guys do. I suspect you aren't real atheists but are people who are angry with God, or a church, or your daddy or something. That's cool, but get over it mate. Why do you spend so much time trying to convert people to your hopelessness (belief in nothing)?

You say "life doesn't really matter" etc. (earlier post) but if that was true, why do you spend so much time worrying about politics and what people believe, etc? Why do you care who people vote for or who people pray to? It makes no sense at all.