Hurricane Bootleg Warning

[Retrospect Records]

What irritates me is that as a lover of sleaze, glam, hard rock and melodic metal I am unable to get a hold of out of print releases without paying a small fortune for each release. I would like to see these cds re-released so that those of us without unlimited finances can enjoy the music which in my opinion is what it's all about. Until this happens I find that I am forced to support those who make boots, I would much prefer that the money went to the bands but that is not the world we live in etc etc...

There's nothing wrong with buying originals if that's what turns your crank but comparing a high quality boot to a fake rolex is not a reasonable comparison. The question IMO, is there a difference in the sound between 'originals' and boots not to mention the quality of the disc itself...if there is no difference then why buy 'original' unless you are making an investment.?? I suppose if money is the only consideration you can always download the mp3s for free off of a newsserver but that's not something I can do anymore than I can read a book on a bookreader rather than have the actual paperback in my hands....

 

 

The great thing about buying Retrospect re-issues is that EVERY band gets a huge cut of EVERY sale. Unlike other supposed legit companies who haven't paid a goddamn cent to ANY of their artists since day one.

 

Now Dan supports these other labels and YET AGAIN HAS NOT done his homework on how these labels treat their artists. Dan , have you ever taken 2 minutes out of your time to talk to guys like Ron Keel , Paul Shortino , Terry Ilous , Jeff Northrup , Mark Gendel , Tony Harnell , Skin and Bones , Snakeryder , Madam X , Jorn Lande and a HOST OF OTHERS who haven't seen a penny from the labels you worship?????

 

NO YOU HAVE NOT. But I have. While you are here at HH I am in the field talking every day with these guys and getting THEIR take on the music industry. IT IS EYE-OPENING to say the least.

 

So while you have no problem ripping me to shreds , you should be focusing on demonizing these CROOK label-owners who rip off bands left and right and DO NOT PAY THEM.

 

And you seriously wonder why I get so annoyed? Please. Learn the industry Dan , find out what's REALLY going on and find some humility. You would be shocked by what you hear.

 

There's a reason I do business the way I do and if you'd like to speak to me via phone call to understand where I am coming from then I WELCOME THAT.

 

This goes for all. Dan , ZacharyAmelie , Glockose , Choc , Koogles , Blue Charvel and any others who are interested in knowing what RR is all about.

 

OPEN INVITATION.

[glockose]

This goes for all. Dan , ZacharyAmelie , Glockose , Choc , Koogles , Blue Charvel and any others who are interested in knowing what RR is all about.

 

OPEN INVITATION.

 

No need, your doin fine.

I truly do understand, I don't agree with it 100%, But I do understand.

 

And thank you for the offer sir.

[stormspell]

I would like to see these cds re-released so that those of us without unlimited finances can enjoy the music which in my opinion is what it's all about. Until this happens I find that I am forced to support those who make boots, I would much prefer that the money went to the bands but that is not the world we live in etc etc...

 

Your point is very moot simply because by supporting the bootleggers you pour fuel into their engine and they keep ripping off more and more. Go see the never-ending list glockose just posted. I personally know several small labels which were working on some re-issues getting the bands invloved, with liner notes, lyrics, bonuses, etc., but all had to scrape the projects out coz meanwhile the bootlegs popped out and presaturated the market.

 

In short and to the point: legit reissues with fat booklets, bonuses and such aint coming if you support the boots, period!

[Retrospect Records]

I will answer these discussion points...

 

 

 

"I see.... so reselling to make a profit = bad, but illegally making or selling bootlegs to make a profit = good... talk about a fundamental moral disconnect."

 

No you miss the point. If you buy cd's solely to re-sell then you will get burned - and your in the business for the WRONG reasons. Illegally making/selling boots is not cool but can be done for the RIGHT reasons.

 

 

 

"Do you realize that with your statement above you just insulted anyone and everyone here who runs a music business or resells casually, whether that's NEH Records, AOR Heaven, or anyone else, on Ebay or otherwise, including the majority of the longtime regulars on this board?"

 

uh no Dan - you really missed the boat on that statement. My statement was directed at re-sellers of oop titles.

 

 

"Your contempt for everyone here is utterly amazing. Do you not realize just how many people you insult and alienate when you make statements like that or do you simply not give a shit?"

 

Your contempt and lack of knowledge of the music industry amazes me Dan. If you spent 10% of your time concerning yourself with more important issues (like the ones I addressed in a previous post) instead of chastizing me , you might actually realize what is really going on with the labels you worship. Be part of the solution Dan.

 

 

"See, this is the thing that just drives me bonkers: You are constantly claiming that I and others unfairly criticize and "gang up" on you, yet you come here on a regular basis and make broad sweeping insults to the community here. You act like everyone here is beneath your contempt and not worthy to bask in your august presence, and then you whine about unfair everyone is. Huh?"

 

MY august presence? Are you kidding Dan? Every post you make is filled with a Holier Than Thou (a/k/a/ know-it-all) arrogance and yet you have absolutely no idea on what is going on!! THAT DRIVES ME BONKERS!! I have MANY friends and customers here at HH so your generalizing that "everyone" is insulted by my statements is just as juvenile as the very thing you accuse ME of!!!

 

Like I said , I know who my friends are and more importantly , I know who my enemies are. I have proved myself and REMAIN humble in fighting for a genre that is losing battles every day. My insults are directed at the ignorant and the arrogant - if the cap fits then so be it. But Retrospect Records will be around for many years and will overshadow the true crooks of this industry one day at a time. You think I got 180 bands because I am an arrogant asshole Dan??? I will expose the frauds and soon there will be bigger and bigger artists joining my team and RR will be everywhere you look. I have a dream. I have goals. They will be met - one step at a time. You can help or you can be a hindrance. If you support Melodic Hard Rock - then you should support RR.

 

 

 

"I've said this countless times over the years, but I keep coming back to it: Do you think that maybe if you didn't go out of your way to alienate, antagonize, ridicule, and belittle people on a regular basis, that maybe, just MAYBE, people would be more courteous to you in turn???"

 

I treat people the way I am treated Dan. That's all that needs to be said.

 

 

"Believe it or not, it goes both ways. You say that people here have to earn your respect. Right back atcha."

 

Making the impact I have already made for our genre of music should have already earned the respect of fans , bands , and collectors alike.

 

From Powerplay Magazine (UK):

 

"Retrospect Records has become a force to be reckoned with in the Hard Rock / AOR genre , presenting a catalog and new release roster that would make Frontiers buckle at the knees".....

 

"nuff said"

 

I would like to see these cds re-released so that those of us without unlimited finances can enjoy the music which in my opinion is what it's all about. Until this happens I find that I am forced to support those who make boots, I would much prefer that the money went to the bands but that is not the world we live in etc etc...

 

Your point is very moot simply because by supporting the bootleggers you pour fuel into their engine and they keep ripping off more and more. Go see the never-ending list glockose just posted. I personally know several small labels which were working on some re-issues getting the bands invloved, with liner notes, lyrics, bonuses, etc., but all had to scrape the projects out coz meanwhile the bootlegs popped out and presaturated the market.

 

In short and to the point: legit reissues with fat booklets, bonuses and such aint coming if you support the boots, period!

 

You have got it all wrong Stormy. Sorry.

[Dead Planet]

Your point is very moot simply because by supporting the bootleggers you pour fuel into their engine and they keep ripping off more and more. Go see the never-ending list glockose just posted. I personally know several small labels which were working on some re-issues getting the bands invloved, with liner notes, lyrics, bonuses, etc., but all had to scrape the projects out coz meanwhile the bootlegs popped out and presaturated the market.

 

In short and to the point: legit reissues with fat booklets, bonuses and such aint coming if you support the boots, period!

 

 

Yeah right that's the same sort of argument that record companies have made in the past. The reality is that if the record companies had their act together and re-released the titles that the fans were demanding there would have been no reason/market for the boots....While I don't condone piracy I certainly understand fans frustration at waiting for a release that might never occur.....especially when there is an alternative even if it is a boot..

[Retrospect Records]

Your point is very moot simply because by supporting the bootleggers you pour fuel into their engine and they keep ripping off more and more. Go see the never-ending list glockose just posted. I personally know several small labels which were working on some re-issues getting the bands invloved, with liner notes, lyrics, bonuses, etc., but all had to scrape the projects out coz meanwhile the bootlegs popped out and presaturated the market.

 

In short and to the point: legit reissues with fat booklets, bonuses and such aint coming if you support the boots, period!

 

 

Yeah right that's the same sort of argument that record companies have made in the past. The reality is that if the record companies had their act together and re-released the titles that the fans were demanding there would have been no reason/market for the boots....While I don't condone piracy I certainly understand fans frustration at waiting for a release that might never occur.....especially when there is an alternative even if it is a boot..

 

 

YES - finally someone who gets it.

[stormspell]

 

Your point is very moot simply because by supporting the bootleggers you pour fuel into their engine and they keep ripping off more and more. Go see the never-ending list glockose just posted. I personally know several small labels which were working on some re-issues getting the bands invloved, with liner notes, lyrics, bonuses, etc., but all had to scrape the projects out coz meanwhile the bootlegs popped out and presaturated the market.

 

In short and to the point: legit reissues with fat booklets, bonuses and such aint coming if you support the boots, period!

 

You have got it all wrong Stormy. Sorry.

 

Maybe, depending from the view point I guess.

From my personal standpoint it looks quite true to me.

[T-BONE]

So... to cut this short:

 

Agree with Sam: You Get It

 

Disagree with Sam: You didn't do your homework... go stand in the corner

[Retrospect Records]

So... to cut this short:

 

Agree with Sam: You Get It

 

Disagree with Sam: You didn't do your homework... go stand in the corner

 

uh , no.

[LV KIX]

Without getting to involved here... Most of these same people who say they are so worried about the band getting something often list used CDs that are not out of print in their auctions. I guess you forward some of the winning bid on to the band? If you care about the band.. don't offer this CD, make the buyer get it from someplace else. I would venture to say that everyone on this board has bought a used CD that is still in print from ebay or a pawn shop. So how much do people really care about the band? The view you have on this topic is based on what benefits you as an individual the most... that's human nature.

 

The hard-cord collectors are the ones bothered the most... that's because it lowers the value of something THEY have. If you want to collect originals... fine, that's up to each individual. But don't say you are against bootlegging because of "the band". I'm all for bands profitting on what they do... but it would make no sense for me to buy the CD at a store for $16.99 if I could get it on ebay for $3.99.

 

I understand that people are bothered when they think they are getting something they are not. But don't jump on a high-horse and say it's all about the bands...Because we all know that's not really the case.

 

Whatever happened to the good old days when it really was about the music...?

[Retrospect Records]

Amen. EXCELLENT point - and one that cannot be disputed.

[glockose]

Well, you are correct.

But that is not the point at least not the point to me.

 

The point is more about deception.

If you are selling a boot (reissue, 2nd press, promo haha, import) OK no problem, But tell people this is what it is.

 

If you are just trying to help a band make some well deserve money(I am all for this). Or trying to get the music out to the world. Why not call a spade a spade. There should be no reason at that point to hide it.

 

Now, I understand you cant sell something on ebay that says "BOOT" but you can put in the description "B**TLE*", "Band Rei**ue", you can even have people "Please Ask" and tell them through email.

 

Now MOST of the Greek boots were not made to FOOL anyone. It has only been the Re-Sellers who have tried Deceiving the public with them. NOT the manufactures who sell these for $4-6 each.

 

Now there are some labels that try and say 1982/2005 Italy. Not giving the customer anything more (extra, Booklet, Tracks, artwork) and make it look like an original.

 

These labels "Bootleggers" are trying to deceive the public. And that is just not right

 

 

Also just like there was no one in AR who was signing a big Major Label deal, There is also NO ONE overseas (Greece, Italy) who is signing all these 80'' bands from the USA. IT JUST IS NOT HAPPENING SORRY. So when you see labels like Forgotten Steel, Hot Metal, Rock-it, ..... Release 5-10-20 Cd's. This just ain't happening and never will.

[stormspell]

LV KIX,

 

I understand your point. However, I make a difference between a scrounger who finds ONE orignal legit copy of a rare CD in some pawnshop and re-sells it, and a person who counterfeit 100 or 500 and re-sells them all.

 

Bands getting/not getting their share is very valid point by all means, but far from being the only one.

 

For instance I'll share my two biggest personal griefs with bootlegs:

 

1. My grief as customer:

When boots are sold in vague way deceiving people of thinking they are getting something real for their money. As a customer nothing else would piss me off than getting something I did not expect to receive, regardless if I paid $5, or $55. I feel bloody cheated all the same.

 

2. My grief as small indy label: By mass-booting an album it essentially robs the band or some label from the opportunity of investing time and money into proper re-issue. Especially valid for indy bands with limited market.

[Blue Charvel]

This goes for all. Dan , ZacharyAmelie , Glockose , Choc , Koogles , Blue Charvel and any others who are interested in knowing what RR is all about.

 

OPEN INVITATION.

 

I think you've already made it abundantly clear what RR is all about, as well as your thoughts about everyone and everything else.

[Retrospect Records]

Well, you are correct.

But that is not the point at least not the point to me.

 

The point is more about deception.

If you are selling a boot (reissue, 2nd press, promo haha, import) OK no problem, But tell people this is what it is.

 

If you are just trying to help a band make some well deserve money(I am all for this). Or trying to get the music out to the world. Why not call a spade a spade. There should be no reason at that point to hide it.

 

Now, I understand you cant sell something on ebay that says "BOOT" but you can put in the description "B**TLE*", "Band Rei**ue", you can even have people "Please Ask" and tell them through email.

 

Now MOST of the Greek boots were not made to FOOL anyone. It has only been the Re-Sellers who have tried Deceiving the public with them. NOT the manufactures who sell these for $4-6 each.

 

Now there are some labels that try and say 1982/2005 Italy. Not giving the customer anything more (extra, Booklet, Tracks, artwork) and make it look like an original.

 

These labels "Bootleggers" are trying to deceive the public. And that is just not right

 

 

Also just like there was no one in AR who was signing a big Major Label deal, There is also NO ONE overseas (Greece, Italy) who is signing all these 80'' bands from the USA. IT JUST IS NOT HAPPENING SORRY. So when you see labels like Forgotten Steel, Hot Metal, Rock-it, ..... Release 5-10-20 Cd's. This just ain't happening and never will.

 

 

Good post Glockose. I will add that if people cannot identify certain releases as boots then they really are naive. Many releases on the Rock-It / Time Warp / Hot Metal / Forgotten Steel and even Reborn Classics labels will never see the light of day on cd , so I support what they are doing. Maybe it will wake certain bands up so they will re-issue their own discs themselves or sign to a reputable company like Retrospect records for proper distribution and royalty rates. It's quite a simple equation. Think about it.

 

 

This goes for all. Dan , ZacharyAmelie , Glockose , Choc , Koogles , Blue Charvel and any others who are interested in knowing what RR is all about.

 

OPEN INVITATION.

 

I think you've already made it abundantly clear what RR is all about, as well as your thoughts about everyone and everything else.

 

 

No , I don't think so Blue. That's why I have an open invitation to all you guys to discuss your thoughts and my directives. The man behind this computer is more complicated than you think.

 

And Stormy , I do like your releases and support what you are doing too but I am going to address this statement

 

"My grief as small indy label: By mass-booting an album it essentially robs the band or some label from the opportunity of investing time and money into proper re-issue. Especially valid for indy bands with limited market."

 

The only way to combat this is to take counter-measures. Sign the band and make a better looking package with bonuses. The Greeks booted my band AXTION but I put a stop to it IMMEDIATELY. Fight fire with fire. Labels like NRR and Shrapnel are missing the boat by ignoring their back catalogs.

[chocularok]

Good post Glockose. I will add that if people cannot identify certain releases as boots then they really are naive.

 

Problem is that a lot of the time you're at the mercy of the seller. Reputable seller (& by that I mean a very good feedback rating)...images of legit product...description saying that it's an original...and you still receive a bootleg. What's a buyer to do?

[Retrospect Records]

Well as a seller , I ALWAYS refund a buyer if he/she is not happy with a purchase (for any reason). I say: Send the cd back and you get a full refund. How much more fair can I be?

[chocularok]

Well as a seller , I ALWAYS refund a buyer if he/she is not happy with a purchase (for any reason). I say: Send the cd back and you get a full refund. How much more fair can I be?

 

That's all well & good, but if a seller is honest about what he's selling in the first place, none of that's necessary. I guess it's just frustrating having to deal with it. It's almost gotten to the point where I expect the worst whenever I receive a cd in the mail nowadays, & hope that I'm pleasently surprised. It's sad, really...

[Studboy]

Without getting to involved here... Most of these same people who say they are so worried about the band getting something often list used CDs that are not out of print in their auctions. I guess you forward some of the winning bid on to the band? If you care about the band.. don't offer this CD, make the buyer get it from someplace else. I would venture to say that everyone on this board has bought a used CD that is still in print from ebay or a pawn shop. So how much do people really care about the band? The view you have on this topic is based on what benefits you as an individual the most... that's human nature.

 

The hard-cord collectors are the ones bothered the most... that's because it lowers the value of something THEY have. If you want to collect originals... fine, that's up to each individual. But don't say you are against bootlegging because of "the band". I'm all for bands profitting on what they do... but it would make no sense for me to buy the CD at a store for $16.99 if I could get it on ebay for $3.99.

 

I understand that people are bothered when they think they are getting something they are not. But don't jump on a high-horse and say it's all about the bands...Because we all know that's not really the case.

 

Whatever happened to the good old days when it really was about the music...?

 

I'm pretty sure all the used record stores across the nation aren't sharing their profits with the bands so why the hell should someone selling a used CD that is still in print. If you bought it then you should be able to sell it, the band has already gotten their money from the initial sale of the CD. Bootlegging is something completely different than what you are talking about cuz they never got their initial cut. It isn't illegal to sell used merchandise, but it is to bootleg. For me I don't give a rats ass if I own a rare CD that is re-issued or bootlegged. I don't buy an original rare CD for investment purposes and I don't give a shit if the value goes up or down cuz I don't plan on selling any of my CDs. I do it for the joy and fun of collecting them just like any other hobby. And if I do sell them then whatever it sells for is fine with me. When it boils down to it, it's all about 1 thing. Money (and/or Greed). Fuck "its about the bands", Fuck "its about the music". Its about the money and if you say otherwise then your fooling yourself. If there isn't money in it then I'm pretty sure nobody would be doing it out of the kindness of their hearts or for the love of the bands/music. Hell, that's why the band is in it as well (well, maybe for a piece of tail as well but that's an entirely different matter ). Money makes the world go round. Its a business. End of story. Sorry if I offended anyone but its the truth.

[chocularok]

I don't buy an original rare CD for investment purposes and I don't give a shit if the value goes up or down cuz I don't plan on selling any of my CDs. I do it for the joy and fun of collecting them just like any other hobby.

 

 

Exactly...couldn't have said it better myself.

[LV KIX]

Without getting to involved here... Most of these same people who say they are so worried about the band getting something often list used CDs that are not out of print in their auctions. I guess you forward some of the winning bid on to the band? If you care about the band.. don't offer this CD, make the buyer get it from someplace else. I would venture to say that everyone on this board has bought a used CD that is still in print from ebay or a pawn shop. So how much do people really care about the band? The view you have on this topic is based on what benefits you as an individual the most... that's human nature.

 

The hard-cord collectors are the ones bothered the most... that's because it lowers the value of something THEY have. If you want to collect originals... fine, that's up to each individual. But don't say you are against bootlegging because of "the band". I'm all for bands profitting on what they do... but it would make no sense for me to buy the CD at a store for $16.99 if I could get it on ebay for $3.99.

 

I understand that people are bothered when they think they are getting something they are not. But don't jump on a high-horse and say it's all about the bands...Because we all know that's not really the case.

 

Whatever happened to the good old days when it really was about the music...?

 

I'm pretty sure all the used record stores across the nation aren't sharing their profits with the bands so why the hell should someone selling a used CD that is still in print. If you bought it then you should be able to sell it, the band has already gotten their money from the initial sale of the CD. Bootlegging is something completely different than what you are talking about cuz they never got their initial cut. It isn't illegal to sell used merchandise, but it is to bootleg. For me I don't give a rats ass if I own a rare CD that is re-issued or bootlegged. I don't buy an original rare CD for investment purposes and I don't give a shit if the value goes up or down cuz I don't plan on selling any of my CDs. I do it for the joy and fun of collecting them just like any other hobby. And if I do sell them then whatever it sells for is fine with me. When it boils down to it, it's all about 1 thing. Money (and/or Greed). Fuck "its about the bands", Fuck "its about the music". Its about the money and if you say otherwise then your fooling yourself. If there isn't money in it then I'm pretty sure nobody would be doing it out of the kindness of their hearts or for the love of the bands/music. Hell, that's why the band is in it as well (well, maybe for a piece of tail as well but that's an entirely different matter ). Money makes the world go round. Its a business. End of story. Sorry if I offended anyone but its the truth.

 

That is the same thing I'm saying... If you collect for investment you sure don't care what the band gets... you want to protect your investment. Selfish..YES. Human Nature...YES. And that's what upsets these people most about "bootlegs".. decreases the value of what they have. My point was that no matter what reason you are a collector.. be it for profit, bragging rights, or the music... Don't say you are worried about the band. Just come out and say that bootlegging cuts into my profits. That's the bottom line... we don't like bootlegs because either it cuts personal profits or it enable others to have some of the same rare CDs that you have.

 

If you say that the thing that bothers you the most is the deception... well by saying you care about the bands you are doing some deceiving yourself.

[Retrospect Records]

hmmm - you do it for the joy of "collecting"???

 

So it's not because you are a fan of the music?

[Studboy]

hmmm - you do it for the joy of "collecting"???

 

So it's not because you are a fan of the music?

 

I'm pretty sure that is implied. People don't collect stuff otherwise. Why do I feel like I'm explaining something to my 6 year old? I never said anything about caring about the band? I've bought a TON of cassettes and CDs over the years to support the bands (and have spent a pretty penny on all the concerts and swag as well). Bottom line is I don't like getting ripped off. I don't give a crap about what my collection is worth. I do care about getting what I've paid for. And if I think I'm buying an original I expect to get that, not some piece of crap knock off.

[Retrospect Records]

Dave has just make the most profound statement and has unearthed the truth behind the thoughts of the "anal collectors"

 

We don't like bootlegs because either it cuts personal profits or it enable others to have some of the same rare CDs that you have.

 

 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO and only a fool would disagree.

 

Dave , you are the man!!! Kudos to you brother.

 

SELFISHNESS rules the elite....and eventually all kings are de-throned.

 

Oh man , I gotta have a beer after this - HAHA it's f'ing great!

[chocularok]

hmmm - you do it for the joy of "collecting"???

 

So it's not because you are a fan of the music?

 

 

 

So you collect things you don't like? I sure as hell don't have any country music in my collection. The basic reason for collecting something is because you enjoy it.

 

 

Dave has just make the most profound statement and has unearthed the truth behind the thoughts of the "anal collectors"

 

We don't like bootlegs because either it cuts personal profits or it enable others to have some of the same rare CDs that you have.

 

 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO and only a fool would disagree.

 

Dave , you are the man!!! Kudos to you brother.

 

SELFISHNESS rules the elite....and eventually all kings are de-throned.

 

Oh man , I gotta have a beer after this - HAHA it's f'ing great!

 

Actually, that's pretty much as far from the truth as you can get, but whatever...I could care less who has what or what my collection is worth. I can honestly say that that thought has never even entered my mind. I'm only concerned with MY collection. Not Steve's...not Jarred's...not James...it's not a contest.