Hurricane Bootleg Warning

[Studboy]

Like you can tell from that pic?

 

My point exactly...you can't. You have to rely on the seller. That's been the whole point of this entire thread.

 

So big whoop , if it's a good seller he'll refund your money and it's all done.

 

90% of people who buy a cd like that could care less where it came from.

 

That's what bootleggers bank on, those who notice just refund their money, those who don't and have paid top dollar for a boot then that's their tough luck they just got ripped off.

 

 

Simple arithmetic I agree. Then why is it some people need to pay the large amount for an original? If it is out of print... wouldn't a CDR copy be just as good?

 

There are people and people. I personally would never pay more than $20-30 for an OOP CD, tops!. If I want it I get it on CDR and wait till its reissued. Other people wont settle for anything but the original... it is the same with all other collectors really, whether they collect stamps, coins, cars, or whatever... I guess that's why I'm not considered a collector, and other people are. Simply as that.

 

Hell, I even didnt buy some of SunCity reissues I wanted coz I thought $18 plus shipping is an outrageous price for fresh reissue. I guess I'm very cheap person when it comes to shopping for my personal collection

 

 

Then you and I agree... There are "CD collectors" and there are "music collectors". And if you are a so-called "CD collector" you should make it your bussiness to know how to spot a bootleg, then you will not get burned. After all... a "CD collector" would be able to spot a bootleg before I could (I'm just a low-level "music collector")... right?

 

Sure, throw it back on the buyer and not the seller. That makes no sense at all. So I can sell all the boots I want to the unsuspecting buyer and that makes it right. If I follow your logic then that is true. It has nothing to do with the "CD collector" vs the "Music Collector". It has to do with trying to be honest or ripping people off.

 

I'm saying that if you are gonna spend a larger sum of cash on a CD and you care if it is a bootleg or not... protect yourself before you buy... don't complain after.

 

And how do you propose we protect ourselves against people advertising CDs as original when they are not (sound familiar Sam, like a 6 year old )? Again, throwing it back on the buyer.

[LV KIX]

Like you can tell from that pic?

 

My point exactly...you can't. You have to rely on the seller. That's been the whole point of this entire thread.

 

So big whoop , if it's a good seller he'll refund your money and it's all done.

 

90% of people who buy a cd like that could care less where it came from.

 

That's what bootleggers bank on, those who notice just refund their money, those who don't and have paid top dollar for a boot then that's their tough luck they just got ripped off.

 

If they don't get an original and don't complain then they didn't get ripped off... they bought the CD for THE MUSIC. Amazing how that works.

[Studboy]

Like you can tell from that pic?

 

My point exactly...you can't. You have to rely on the seller. That's been the whole point of this entire thread.

 

So big whoop , if it's a good seller he'll refund your money and it's all done.

 

90% of people who buy a cd like that could care less where it came from.

 

That's what bootleggers bank on, those who notice just refund their money, those who don't and have paid top dollar for a boot then that's their tough luck they just got ripped off.

 

If they don't get an original and don't complain then they didn't get ripped off... they bought the CD for THE MUSIC. Amazing how that works.

 

So I can sell a fake Picasso painting to you mom for a million bucks. If she doesn't complain then tough shit and I get the money.

[Retrospect Records]

Like you can tell from that pic?

 

My point exactly...you can't. You have to rely on the seller. That's been the whole point of this entire thread.

 

So big whoop , if it's a good seller he'll refund your money and it's all done.

 

90% of people who buy a cd like that could care less where it came from.

 

That's what bootleggers bank on, those who notice just refund their money, those who don't and have paid top dollar for a boot then that's their tough luck they just got ripped off.

 

If they don't get an original and don't complain then they didn't get ripped off... they bought the CD for THE MUSIC. Amazing how that works.

 

So I can sell a fake Picasso painting to you mom for a million bucks. If she doesn't complain then tough shit and I get the money.

 

 

Ahhhhh - you are learning mi amigo. If someone is dumb enuff not to authenticate a piece of art like that before shelling out a million bucks then they deserve to be taken.

 

Like you can tell from that pic?

 

My point exactly...you can't. You have to rely on the seller. That's been the whole point of this entire thread.

 

So big whoop , if it's a good seller he'll refund your money and it's all done.

 

90% of people who buy a cd like that could care less where it came from.

 

That's what bootleggers bank on, those who notice just refund their money, those who don't and have paid top dollar for a boot then that's their tough luck they just got ripped off.

 

If they don't get an original and don't complain then they didn't get ripped off... they bought the CD for THE MUSIC. Amazing how that works.

 

Another awesome statement Dave. Well done!!!

[LV KIX]

Like you can tell from that pic?

 

My point exactly...you can't. You have to rely on the seller. That's been the whole point of this entire thread.

 

So big whoop , if it's a good seller he'll refund your money and it's all done.

 

90% of people who buy a cd like that could care less where it came from.

 

That's what bootleggers bank on, those who notice just refund their money, those who don't and have paid top dollar for a boot then that's their tough luck they just got ripped off.

 

If they don't get an original and don't complain then they didn't get ripped off... they bought the CD for THE MUSIC. Amazing how that works.

 

So I can sell a fake Picasso painting to you mom for a million bucks. If she doesn't complain then tough shit and I get the money.

 

If she is happy with it then she wasn't ripped off. Now, on the other hand, if she was an "anal collector" then she wouldn't really be in it for the art... she would be pissed because her "investment" was worthless. BINGO

[Retrospect Records]

HAHAHAHHA - Dave is killing me!! WOOHOO!!

 

[Studboy]

Well then, there isn't anything else I can say, you two have said it all. Try ripping off everyone you can and if they notice then give them their money back, otherwise, too bad for the poor sucker who trusted you. Lonnie isn't sounding like such a bad guy anymore

[Retrospect Records]

You MUST be a democrat to make a statement like that.

[Studboy]

Well, I'm done with this thread, nothing more I could add. Dave and Sam has actually done a fine job themselves showing their true colors.

[LV KIX]

Well then, there isn't anything else I can say, you two have said it all. Try ripping off everyone you can and if they notice then give them their money back, otherwise, too bad for the poor sucker who trusted you. Lonnie isn't sounding like such a bad guy anymore

 

Everyone isn't in it for the same reason you are...it's that simple. Some who bid on bootlegs (wether knowingly or unknowingly) are buying the CD because they want to hear the music. If Sam offers money back to those who aren't happy with the product you should applaud him. If you are not happy with something you got from him... just ask for your money back. Can you get any more honest then that.

 

PS: I think Lonnie is taking pre-orders for his next 6 releases... ummm... did you get your money back from him yet?

[Studboy]

Well then, there isn't anything else I can say, you two have said it all. Try ripping off everyone you can and if they notice then give them their money back, otherwise, too bad for the poor sucker who trusted you. Lonnie isn't sounding like such a bad guy anymore

 

Everyone isn't in it for the same reason you are...it's that simple. Some who bid on bootlegs (wether knowingly or unknowingly) are buying the CD because they want to hear the music. If Sam offers money back to those who aren't happy with the product you should applaud him. If you are not happy with something you got from him... just ask for your money back. Can you get any more honest then that.

 

PS: I think Lonnie is taking pre-orders for his next 6 releases... ummm... did you get your money back from him yet?

 

Nothing like thanking the dude for giving the money back he just conned you out of

[Retrospect Records]

Oh man , Dave you tore it up tonight - I wish we were playing Springfield tomorrow night - brother I'd buy you a few rounds.

 

One of the most entertaining nights I've had in weeks. And I'm holed up in snowy Ohio - LOL.

 

KUDOS.

[LV KIX]

Well, I'm done with this thread, nothing more I could add. Dave and Sam has actually done a fine job themselves showing their true colors.

 

Well.... I'm not here to make everyone happy. I've met alot of great people here... they know my "true colors", not someone I've never had any dealings with.

 

And to think I actually felt sorry for you when you were ripped on the Hurricane releases... Actually I still hope you get whatever you are owed.

 

My only points here are that as a buyer you should be careful of what you purchase knowing the nature of this hobby. And... Many are happy just to be able to listen to a particular release on CD... if they pay $120 on a CD and it is not an original ... they were not ripped off if they like the music... In many cases that is why they bought the CD in the first place,

[Studboy]

Well, I'm done with this thread, nothing more I could add. Dave and Sam has actually done a fine job themselves showing their true colors.

 

Well.... I'm not here to make everyone happy. I've met alot of great people here... they know my "true colors", not someone I've never had any dealings with.

 

And to think I actually felt sorry for you when you were ripped on the Hurricane releases... Actually I still hope you get whatever you are owed.

 

My only points here are that as a buyer you should be careful of what you purchase knowing the nature of this hobby. And... Many are happy just to be able to listen to a particular release on CD... if they pay $120 on a CD and it is not an original ... they were not ripped off if they like the music... In many cases that is why they bought the CD in the first place,

 

You two definitely deserve each other, that's for damn sure. Enjoy the drinks paid for by all the poor suckers you ripped off. You guys must be Republicans

[Retrospect Records]

Well, I'm done with this thread, nothing more I could add. Dave and Sam has actually done a fine job themselves showing their true colors.

 

Well.... I'm not here to make everyone happy. I've met alot of great people here... they know my "true colors", not someone I've never had any dealings with.

 

And to think I actually felt sorry for you when you were ripped on the Hurricane releases... Actually I still hope you get whatever you are owed.

 

My only points here are that as a buyer you should be careful of what you purchase knowing the nature of this hobby. And... Many are happy just to be able to listen to a particular release on CD... if they pay $120 on a CD and it is not an original ... they were not ripped off if they like the music... In many cases that is why they bought the CD in the first place,

 

You two definitely deserve each other, that's for damn sure. Enjoy the drinks paid for by all the poor suckers you ripped off. You guys must be Republicans

 

 

No , I just like bush.

[LV KIX]

Well... my little fingers are gettin' tired. I'm gonna call it a night and go listen to some of my bootlegs.

 

Seriously.... I've actually enjoyed this thread tonight. Not much name calling or any of the usual stuff. Though I don't understand some of your logic Studboy... it was a pleasure chattin' with you tonight.

 

 

PS - like Joe Perry says... "Let the MUSIC do the talkin'"

[T-BONE]

The simple solution would be for the seller to admit whether they're bootlegs or not right in the auction and save everyone time and bullshit. It would matter if the buyer was a collector or not... they'd know ahead of time and not have to waste any of their time or the sellers. By NOT admitting they're boots, the seller is banking on the fact that the buyer won't notice, and possibly pay alot of money thinking their getting an original. It's being deceptive no matter which way you look at it. It has no bearing whether the buyer is a collector or not... still deceptive

[LV KIX]

Damn... I'm back.

 

I just read in another thread that you bought a Tuff Luck form Sam knowing it wasn't an original. Good for you... it was about the music. Now how do you know all the other people who bought from Sam didn't buy for the same reason you did? You are happy with the Tuff Luck CD you got from Sam.

[stormspell]

I start all auctions at 99 cents - how much more affordable can they f'ing be?

 

I think the more important question is, for how much do they end... I honeslty think BIN of $11.99 would be much more affordable for many people than trying to win 99 cent auction.

 

ALL prices are set on the website and are extremely affordable.

 

I agree with that and you get my kudos for having them at your site for fixed price. But why not make eBay store and have same CDs for the same prices on eBay too? You will sell much more CDs at lower cost than only 100 at higher and the total profit at the end would be the same, if not bigger.

 

Stormy - you will learn in time that running an indie label is far more complicated than you think and you will need to become a good businessman to deal with 180 bands as RR does.

 

Actually I'm hoping to avoid that. I hope to keep the passion and the fun of hunting down old bands and making good releases. If I delvelop the label with the business side being my main focus, I fear the passion will be gone and I'll not have the same interest and artistic freedom I enjoy now. As long as the label is self-efficient and can return the investment so I dont have to reach to my pocket for every new release, I'll be a happy camper.

 

SUPPLY AND DEMAND. One of the top reasons why Retrospect Records has become the world's leader in re-issues. And I guarantee you Stormy that I am paying the artists more than any other label. None of this $5 (or less) per cd crap.

 

You see, I understand what you mean, and to certain extend I do admire you for the hard work you have been putting up, especially with keeping up with the extensive eBay sales you have week in and week out. Its a very hard job and I dont know how you manage to keep up with it (unless you have a hefty crew working for you).

 

But then again, if we look at the band royalties, you see, paying $10 per sold CD of 100 units actually equals to paying $1 per 1000 CDs pressed. So in my eyes it is not so much. Besides, I care for the clients too, and want to keep the golden medium so the band gets some money, but the client does not have to pay arm and leg for their CD too. That's my simple filosophy. I pay a small fraction of what you say you pay to your bands, but I pay mine all in advance so the band does not fear I'll rip them off later, and I also cover all expenses on the release (pay for artwork, remastering, layout and design, etc.) - those expenses put together actually cost quite a lot sometimes, and many other small labels require the bands to take care of them. So to me its no really different if someone will pay $4000 to their band, and make them pay $3000 back for new artwork, mastering, design, etc. or if I pay my band only $1000, but fork the $3000 for the expenses out of my own pocket.

 

P.S. almost forgot: I also give my bands 50 or more free retail-ready CDs for their personal use. Can you afford doing this at 100 units run?

[Mullethead]

Jesus, my eyes hurt guys....I think we can agree to disagree on this one.

 

 

JL

[glockose]

The only way to combat this is to take counter-measures. Sign the band and make a better looking package with bonuses. The Greeks booted my band AXTION but I put a stop to it IMMEDIATELY. Fight fire with fire. Labels like NRR and Shrapnel are missing the boat by ignoring their back catalogs.

 

Ok Here is the problem with this statement

 

As everyone here knows the market is not that big (Like you have stated in the past when asking the board "should I press 100-500-1000") It is not always an easy task to sell 1000 copies of 1 CD.

 

The way to get rid of the Bootleggers it to put the product out legit BEFORE the boots hit the market. If there is already an affordable re-issue on the market it is not worth the time of the bootleggers.

 

Now if it has already been booted it is not so easy to sell a legit copy even if it is superior.

1) cheep copies are already available to the "Music" fan

2) the collector gets nervous "is it a boot or not?"

In this case if you thought you could move 500-1000 Legit nice copies. You probably can really only move 100-300. (Is it worth it?)

 

And please DO NOT THINK someone pulls a product after it has been printed (This will never happen) they are not going to lose money just because someone says STOP. Hell they are bootleggers they already have no regard for the law. ALL that happens is:

1) The product sits in a box for some time before coming out again.

2) They move the product somewhere they think you will not see it.

3) They dump the product on another dealer who knows nothing about your complaint and pleads ignorant

 

 

 

Labels like NRR and Shrapnel are missing the boat by ignoring their back catalogs

I AGREE

[Retrospect Records]

"I think the more important question is, for how much do they end... I honeslty think BIN of $11.99 would be much more affordable for many people than trying to win 99 cent auction."

 

They can end at $3 or end for $100. Doesn't really matter. Ebay is the best marketing tool in the world.

 

 

 

"I agree with that and you get my kudos for having them at your site for fixed price. But why not make eBay store and have same CDs for the same prices on eBay too?

"

 

I probably will eventually. For now the prospect of a buyer being able to purchase a cd for under $10 brings in good business. If it ain't broke - why fix it?

 

 

 

 

"Actually I'm hoping to avoid that. I hope to keep the passion and the fun of hunting down old bands and making good releases. If I delvelop the label with the business side being my main focus, I fear the passion will be gone and I'll not have the same interest and artistic freedom I enjoy now. As long as the label is self-efficient and can return the investment so I dont have to reach to my pocket for every new release, I'll be a happy camper."

 

 

 

 

I have 180 bands and my passion for what I am doing is stronger than ever. Business is business - I am not doing this to LOSE money.

 

 

 

 

"You see, I understand what you mean, and to certain extend I do admire you for the hard work you have been putting up, especially with keeping up with the extensive eBay sales you have week in and week out. Its a very hard job and I dont know how you manage to keep up with it (unless you have a hefty crew working for you).

But then again, if we look at the band royalties, you see, paying $10 per sold CD of 100 units actually equals to paying $1 per 1000 CDs pressed. So in my eyes it is not so much. Besides, I care for the clients too, and want to keep the golden medium so the band gets some money, but the client does not have to pay arm and leg for their CD too. That's my simple filosophy. I pay a small fraction of what you say you pay to your bands, but I pay mine all in advance so the band does not fear I'll rip them off later, and I also cover all expenses on the release (pay for artwork, remastering, layout and design, etc.) - those expenses put together actually cost quite a lot sometimes, and many other small labels require the bands to take care of them. So to me its no really different if someone will pay $4000 to their band, and make them pay $3000 back for new artwork, mastering, design, etc. or if I pay my band only $1000, but fork the $3000 for the expenses out of my own pocket.

P.S. almost forgot: I also give my bands 50 or more free retail-ready CDs for their personal use. Can you afford doing this at 100 units run?"

 

 

The band gets however many they want.

 

Stormy , I hope you are not suggesting that you pay a band $1 per cd made. Because that would REALLY disappoint me. Whats important to note is that I may do an initial run of 100 cd's but there's always room for pressing more. I just hope to God that you aren't giving a band $1 per cd - that's , well , unacceptable. Tell me I'm wrong.

[glockose]

I always gave the bands $100 per song up front plus 50 copies. and I never took any rights. this was only a licence agreement to press no more then 500 copies. The bands always retained everything.

 

VINYL LP would have 10 songs ($1000) ($2 per record) up-front before pressing

I was only able to press 500 copies = $3900

 

Bottom line- I would end up with 450 copies to sell (band got 50) with a cost of $10.88 each into them

If / When I sold every copy wholesale $12 each I would have made $500 this does not include any time/promotion on my part and may take years to do.

 

Sam - Is this fair?

 

All bands still to this day can go and make another deal with anyone they want no string attached.

[stormspell]

Stormy , I hope you are not suggesting that you pay a band $1 per cd made. Because that would REALLY disappoint me. Whats important to note is that I may do an initial run of 100 cd's but there's always room for pressing more. I just hope to God that you aren't giving a band $1 per cd - that's , well , unacceptable. Tell me I'm wrong.

 

I offer every band 3 options: barter deal, fixed lump sum in advance, or percentage per sold CD basis.

 

So far all bands opted for the lump sum. If they take the percentage deal they may make quite more money (or may not, depending how CDs sell). It is their choice, so I dont think anyone should blame me how much I pay - its clearly their choice to decide whether to take the fixed sum upfront, or take the gamble with juicier per sold CD basis.

 

Oh yeah, and I do the same like glockose - the band retain the copyrights, I only license one-time 1000 CDs pressing and a grace period of one year in which they agree not to relicense it to another label.

 

Is it fair? I think it is. If the band think its not, they are free to move on and chose another label - open market economy as you say.

[chocularok]

There are "CD collectors" and there are "music collectors".

 

Aren't you allowed to be both?

 

You can be whatever you wanna be... go for it. Just one question for you. Do you own a single CDR?

 

OK, I'll bite. Sure I have some stuff on CDR. A few (probably around 10...) are copies of some indies that I have to hold me over untill I can locate the real deal. All the others are live shows. Bunches of those...around a hundred maybe. How's that relevant to this thread?

 

 

I'm saying that if you are gonna spend a larger sum of cash on a CD and you care if it is a bootleg or not... protect yourself before you buy... don't complain after.

 

I'm open to suggestions...protect yourself how? Seller's auction states that it's an original. Picture appears to be of an original cd. Seller has excellent feedback (99.2% or something like that).

 

 

If they don't get an original and don't complain then they didn't get ripped off... they bought the CD for THE MUSIC. Amazing how that works.

 

Let me see if I understand your logic. It's ok to rip someone off as long as they don't KNOW they've been ripped off, right?

 

So if I decided to purchase some cd's from Sam & paid him with counterfeit money, it would be ok as long as he couldn't tell that the money was fake?