heavyharmonies

First, several distracting posts removed. If you don't care that people here were systematically ripped off, then just move on to another topic. Belittling the affected people doesn't help the situation, nor does it do you any favors... No. Getting people to donate lets Lonnie off the hook at this point. I want to see how this plays out and whether or not Lonnie is true to his word. [Ok, I can here the laughter now; bear with me for a sec...] Some people have gotten refunds. Not all, but the number is increasing. Let's give it time to work. Let's see if Lonnie actually gets a loan and repays anything to Adriano and Georg. Also, there's the logistics of how you handle donations, to whom they go, and how you determine that recipients are ones that were actually ripped off. How do you handle PayPal fees? Is it done with a single PayPal link? If so, to whose account? Are they trustworthy? How do you make sure that someone doesn't receive donations in excess of the amount they originally lost? Are there tax implications? What if someone donates and then does a chargeback, or does a donation with a stolen credit card? The person whose PayPal account is the "clearing house" could end up being hit. As always, the devil is in the details... -Dan

That's an excellent start. I do want to ask though, what is your timeframe and/or plan regarding those who are out large sums, specifically Adriano, Georg, and Music-Buy-Mail? Thanks, -Dan

I received the following bit of advice: http://www.ic3.gov/ If enough people who have been defrauded report this, the federal authorities might take action. -Dan

Adriano, I'm sorry to say that all indications are that you will receive nothing. My guess is that criminal and civil prosecution for this would be difficult, because (1) with the exception of the 3 international transactions (that I know of), the individual amounts of the theft are small, and (2) the victims are spread out everywhere. Legally I have no idea how one would proceed. I've placed an inquiry with the Attorney General of the State of Arkansas; hopefully they can provide some information, or at least a suggestion. -Dan

This gives a new meaning to the word "arrogance". No apology. No contrition. Nothing. Even after being caught in numerous lies, fraud, and coverup, you take the attitude the the problem isn't you, but rather everyone else here who made the mistake of trusting you or buying from you. NEWSFLASH: The people here didn't buy from "The Ramirez Brothers," they bought from *YOU*. Any issues you have with a third party are no one's problems but yours. The instant you tried to cover things up with a fake car accident, you crossed the line from merely incompetent to committing fraud. Did "The Ramirez Brothers" force you to do that too? Unbelievable. -Dan P.S. Rhetorical question: Does anyone else find this strategy of "Well, I can't refute the facts, so I'll attack the accusers" eerily familiar?...

Lonnie/David/whoever was pretty darned adamant that everyone would have their refunds by this past Friday. We all see how that turned out. Now I'm willing to believe that there are complications, delays, etc., but a truly "stand up" person wouldn't be spending their time breaking their arm patting themselves on the back for giving back the money he stole in the first place. A truly "stand up" person would have come here prior to the deadline and said "I'm running into a little difficulty so things may get delayed a bit. I've sent refunds to XXX, YYY, and ZZZZ, and the following people should get refunds by Saturday/Sunday: AAA, BBB, CCC..." (Actually a truly "stand up" person would have never ripped everyone off to begin with, but work with me here...) Instead no explanation is forthcoming, just after-the-fact spinning to a few private individuals. Once again Lonnie has an opportunity to somewhat redeem himself or at least show himself as trying to do the right thing, and blows it yet again. Actions speak louder than words. I would not take a SINGLE word at face value. So far a whopping two people here have received refunds. So Lonnie can hold those two people up as shining examples of his intent to do right, all the while screwing everyone else behind the scenes. Hmmm.... sounds familiar... at any rate this email doesn't mean dick. -Dan

I doubt it's a real sale. So-called "private" auctions are havens for shill bidding. That's the reason I NEVER bid on an auction where the buyer is private. It's too easy for a seller to artificially inflate the bid with a fake ID. -Dan

Other than the seasonal sports packages, the only other major difference is High Definition offerings. Dish includes the HDTV channels from the now-defunct VOOM network. DirecTV does not have them. Dish has the following HD channels above and beyond what DirecTV offers: A&E HD Animania HD Equator HD Family Room HD Film Fest HD Food Network HD GamePlay HD (cool to see demos and trailers of Xbox 360/PSP games as well as tournament coverage in HD) Gallery HD HD News HGTV HD Kung Fu HD Monsters HD NFL Network HD Rave HD (All music concerts) Rush HD Treasure HD Ultra HD World Cinema HD World Sport HD (if you're into soccer, rugby, etc. in high definition) If you're into HD, the choice is a no-brainer...

Unless you want me to be breaking some thumbs. It's up to over 44 of the darned things, and given the number of CDs out there, it could go on ad infinituum. It's well on its way to cluttering up both the polls forum and the "View New Posts" page. It would be one thing if the thread titles were useful, but they're not. You can't tell a darned thing by looking at the thread listings page. I don't want to clamp down on the fun, but there are limits. So.... some guidelines: 1. 3 new poll posts in this series per day. 2. Use the "Topic Description" field to list the 3 artists in that particular poll. 3. I've doubled the number of questions per poll from 3 to 6, so that should reduce the overall number of threads. Thanks, -Dan

Music Buy Mail's weekly newsletter just coming across now: I really have to wonder at what point does the total dollar amount of the fraud become high enough that Federal Authorities become interested, as opposed to just local. -Dan

From this week's AOR Heaven newsletter:

From one of the online histories: A complex invention doesn't usually appear out of thin air with no precedents, and the compact disc is no exception. As a medium for reproducing music, the CD is a merger and adaptation of many different technologies, including the laser (first demonstrated 1960), digital recording (first demonstrated 1967), optical disc technology (first commercially used in the 1970s for LaserVision movies), and of course the computer. The digital sampling rate of 44.1 kHz is based on equations first published in 1928, the pulse code modulation (PCM) method of audio encoding used by the CD dates to 1948, and the error correction codes used date to 1960. With all these disparate parts waiting for someone to develop a workable system in the 1970s, several competing groups worked in secret. It was Philips Industries, a Dutch-based electronics giant (known in the music world as owner of the PolyGram labels), that made the first announcement, on May 17, 1978. Working with Japan's Sony Corporation, Philips announced that they would have a marketable compact disc and appropriate hardware ready "in the early 1980s." That promise was kept on October 1, 1982, when the compact disc was introduced in Japan by CBS/Sony, with 112 different CD titles and a CD player (Sony's CDP-101). The last few months of 1982 were hectic, with Sony selling over 20,000 CD players and Hitachi also posting sales in the 6,000 per month range for their player. Prices for these initial players ran from about $700 to about $1000. The discs themselves, priced at about $15-20, could not be pressed fast enough to meet demand. Sony's research on who was buying the discs in Japan indicated it was young (20s, early 30s) men with a particular interest in sound quality. Perhaps it was this research that led others to believe, as the rest of the world looked on in curiosity to what was happening in Japan, that CDs would fill a niche for high quality sound enthusiasts and little else. By the end of 1982, CBS/Sony and Epic/Sony had issued 122 CD titles. Of these, 34 were classical, followed in number by jazz, rock, and pop, including 12 karaoke ("empty orchestra") titles to be used in singalongs (gadzooks, what hath CD wrought?). Among the titles were Billy Joel's Nylon Curtain and 52nd Street, Simon & Garfunkel's Bridge Over Troubled Water, REO Speedwagon's Hi Infidelity, and Michael Jackson's Off The Wall. The stories about compact discs published in Billboard during early 1983 are fascinating. The lead story on January 29 has PolyGram mulling over how to package the CD in the US when it's released later in 1983, leaning toward the (in retrospect, ill-fated) "long box," the 6"x12" cardboard box which they convinced the industry to adopt at the RIAA (Record Industry Association of America) meeting the next week. (Many at the meeting were considering a 12"x12" box!) In February, Sony announced a "firm" suggested retail price of $1000 for their CD player and $16.98 for discs when they would be introduced later that year in the US. February 23, 1983 marked the debut of the compact disc in Europe, with PolyGram's Hans Gout noting that, "The sooner the Compact Disc replaces the conventional black vinyl LP, the better." By early March, Sony and CBS Records in the US were supplying free compact disc players and discs to selected radio stations here, mostly with Classical and Album-Oriented Rock formats. The March 12 issue of Billboard also notes that Capitol Record Shop, a Hartford, Connecticut, record store, had begun importing CDs from Japan and Europe, with 24 titles at a price tag of $24.95 each. At the time the owner was interviewed, he had only sold a total of one disc. Several months of delays and anticipation dragged by, until in late June, 1983, CBS finally shipped the first CD "prepacks" to a select 35 accounts. Each prepack had a total of 12 titles, with no more than a total of 1000 prepacks altogether in the first shipment. Among the individual titles were Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here, Billy Joel's The Stranger, Michael Jackson's Thriller, and Toto's Toto IV. Other titles were jazz and classical. The CD era had begun in the United States. Within about a month, CBS had issued several other pop/rock titles, including Boston's Don't Look Back, Earth Wind & Fire's Raise!, ELO's Discovery, Journey's Escape, Boz Scaggs' Silk Degrees, Barbra Streisand's Guilty, and Bruce Springsteen's Born To Run. These had the CBS logo (and mastering numbers in the DIDP 50000 series). Later, these were reissued with Columbia logos, but these remain as examples of the earliest American CD releases.

Egads, talk about high maintenance. An entire string of posts deleted for dragging the thread off-topic. No, Lonnie has not been banned. I did give Sam 30 days for repeatedly ignoring my requests to not make this thread about him or his label. If Glockose makes another post like he has been, he will get 30 days as well. -Dan

Sorry, I still disbelieve. 1. Who in their right mind would ever give access to their PayPal account to unknown third parties? That makes no sense whatsoever. NONE. If they have expenses, then you just PayPal them the amount they need. 2. You never bothered to open the boxes to verify that they contained CDs??? You're not THAT stupid. Disingenuous, yes, but you didn't turn your brain off a week ago. Just man up, admit that you thought you could get away with a scam, and be done with it. This story just makes you look worse. Stop trying to pass the buck. We're not buying it. Whatever. I'm glad you're going to refund everyone, and I hope that includes Georg and Adriano. Just realize that you have lost any and all credibility you may have built up in the music community. What a waste... -Dan

Well, let's be patient and see how this plays out over the next few days first... -Dan

While I think it's great that some folks may start to be getting refunds, I'd appreciate if Adriano and Georg would post here when they receive their refunds (or if they don't receive their refunds by Friday), since they have 4 figures in limbo. It's a good first step, but regardless, I think full disclosure is still warranted. -Dan

More posts deleted. Sam: one final warning -- you attempt to derail this thread again and it's 30 days. If you want to start a diatribe against other label owners, fine. Start another thread elsewhere, but leave this one alone. Got it? -Dan

If I'm comprehending that correctly, there's any number of things wrong: 1. So now we know that David and Lon are one and the same and he/they admit that there was no accident. A secretary at a car dealership wouldn't send inquiries for a specific employee to someone else who isn't employed there. If anything you'd get a supervisor. 2. If Lovid (easier than typing Lon/David) has time to respond to all these PMs and emails, he certainly has time to post the definitive answer here once and for all. Even "Guys, I'm sorry for trying to rip you off. It was stupid, and I apologize" would be infinitely better than the B.S. backtracking and cover-up going on right now. 3. As previously mentioned, by Friday? Log into PayPal and start clicking "Refund Payment" links until you're done. Voila! simple. -Dan P.S. You're just digging yourself into a deeper hole. It wouldn't suprise me if multiple calls have already been made to the Blytheville Police Department.

Yup. That's the one I was talking about. C'mon guys, if you're going to lie to everyone, at least put some thought into the process... sheesh. -Dan

Well, I'm getting nowhere with respect to an answer from David/Lon, and he appears to be PMing/emailing select members here, so I'm going to post our communication unredacted. There is a HUGE red flag to me one of the responses; let's see if you pick it up. My initial inquiry when this first reared its ugly head (sent 9:32 a.m. yesterday morning): I got no response until about 1.5 hours ago: I responded: After this I phoned Phil Carson, at which point I found out that "working with Phil Carson" conceivably meant following the cease and desist order. His most recent response:

Oh, you're quite correct: I have NO clue who is at the other end of the keyboard. It's Lon's username with the post signed by David. Another data point: I just got off the phone with Phil Carson, who verified that these are completely unlicensed bootlegs (if there were any actually pressed) and that they are proceeding with a cease and desist order. -Dan

Update: I have just received a PM from David. I have replied, asking his permission to post it here. I don't want to get into specifics prior to obtaining his permission, but he maintains that the auto accident and Lon's injuries are real. -Dan P.S. I deleted the off-topic dumb stuff about car salesmen. Let's keep this on topic, ok? Thanks

I knew I'd forgotten something. Georg sent me the scan of the UPS waybill that supposedly proved that Lon had shipped the CDs. Problem: No stamp or initials on the part of any UPS employee indicating receipt of the package. Basically it was the same as you or I picking up a blank form from UPS and filling out just the customer portion. Now I don't care what podunk hicksville town you live in, but UPS *ALWAYS* provides something that acknowledges receipt of the shipment, whether it's a printed receipt from the UPS depot, or the initials of the driver who picked up the package. The waybill is clearly bogus. See below. (I've blurred out Georg's phone number and UPS account number)

Actually what I meant was that everything up until this point was passive: "so-and-so told me that...", or "XXXXX said that they had never been contacted about reissues of..." and as we've seen with other record labels, stuff like that can be spun a million ways from Sunday by both sides. Taking down web pages overnight on the heels of discussion here is a *current* active move by Lon/David in response to the heat being applied. It also verifies that someone is aware of what's going on here and at MR and are taking steps to cover up the fraudulent acts. It's active damage control in lieu of a formal response, which pretty much confirms everything that people have speculated. -Dan

Yep. Looks like Lon/David/whoever is in serious CYA mode. This active move on their part clinches it. Probably a good thing that I saved copies of all those web pages last night, huh? I'll post them tonight when I get home, just so those coming to the party late know exactly what people are referring to... -Dan