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14 hours ago, Dead Planet said:

I doubt that China deliberately released the virus however considering how secretive and nontransparent they have been over this issue, it is reasonable to think that it was accidentally released from a lab but I'm not sure it matters now if it came from a lab or a market....it is a fact of life that we all have to live with....although it would be nice to know that they have taken steps to prevent it from happening again....

Yeah, the very valid point is made in the video that it's unlikely it was intentionally released because China have suffered as well as the rest of the world. After the video I found it much more likely that it was accidentally released, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure. 

15 hours ago, CureTheSane said:

But think about this. Every single country pretty much treated it the same way. Individual assessments all came to the same conclusion.

So who is right? Darkstone, or every government in the world?

Hmmm, that's not the best route to travel. A bit like assuming the best selling pop album of the year is the best music that was released in said year. 

I know it was only one prolific country, and I believe there were another couple, but Sweden didn't march to the beat of the world's drum. And I don't believe that looking at death rates amidst the pandemic is an even remotely worthwhile way to assess which strategy will work best in the long run. That may now be known for another ten years, to be fair. 

And just remember it's not just Darkstone who thinks the whole thing blew completely out of proportion. 

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1 hour ago, Geoff said:

Yeah, the very valid point is made in the video that it's unlikely it was intentionally released because China have suffered as well as the rest of the world. After the video I found it much more likely that it was accidentally released, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure. 

Hmmm, that's not the best route to travel. A bit like assuming the best selling pop album of the year is the best music that was released in said year. 

I know it was only one prolific country, and I believe there were another couple, but Sweden didn't march to the beat of the world's drum. And I don't believe that looking at death rates amidst the pandemic is an even remotely worthwhile way to assess which strategy will work best in the long run. That may now be known for another ten years, to be fair. 

And just remember it's not just Darkstone who thinks the whole thing blew completely out of proportion. 

As usual its very easy to sit back and say it was blown out of ppn when you weren't one of the ones who died or a family directly affected by it. 

I would imagine there are 150,000 people in the UK wishing that our government had locked down like yours and millions of people in the families affected thinking the same thing.

Especially on the day that an independent report was issued damning our government to hell for the bad choices it made in the early stages.

And let's not use the usual argument that other people die as well - many of these deaths could have been avoided. Thats the sad fact. 

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2 hours ago, Glen said:

As usual its very easy to sit back and say it was blown out of ppn when you weren't one of the ones who died or a family directly affected by it. 

I would imagine there are 150,000 people in the UK wishing that our government had locked down like yours and millions of people in the families affected thinking the same thing.

Especially on the day that an independent report was issued damning our government to hell for the bad choices it made in the early stages.

And let's not use the usual argument that other people die as well - many of these deaths could have been avoided. Thats the sad fact. 

I don't want to do this dance again, but if anyone is looking at Australia now with envy I 1. pity them, and 2. highly doubt they actually exist.

People wouldn't die from skin cancer if you made it against the law to go outside again. People wouldn't die in car accidents if you banned the use of all cars. 

Stripping away people's last ounces of freedom will prevent whatever you solely want to focus on if that's your intention. But at what cost?

This covid tunnel vision is stressfully unsettling to witness. 

People in Australia used to know we lived in the best country on the planet. No word of a lie, I would believe that the vast majority of us truly and honestly believed this was the truth. I can't speak for every one of those people, but people here now hate what this country has become. I'm one of them. I now hear Australia compared to North Korea and China in terms of how we're governed. 

You're very much like our politicians here. The country has crumbled around us, but hey, at least we have less covid deaths than the rest of the world. None of the other tens of thousands of things that it takes to run a country matter, because we were the most panic stricken, fear-driven and disproportionate country on earth and saved everyone from covid death. Yay for us! Get some cameras on the streets of Victoria and capture the hoards of smiling faces. 

This entire pandemic has been lived in fear of the worst case scenario, because of what happened in other places on earth. But Australia isn't other places on earth. None of these doomsday scenarios have ever looked even on the verge of happening here, yet we've cowered our way through the entire thing and become a global spectacle, but not in a positive light. 

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3 hours ago, Geoff said:

I don't want to do this dance again, but if anyone is looking at Australia now with envy I 1. pity them, and 2. highly doubt they actually exist.

People wouldn't die from skin cancer if you made it against the law to go outside again. People wouldn't die in car accidents if you banned the use of all cars. 

Stripping away people's last ounces of freedom will prevent whatever you solely want to focus on if that's your intention. But at what cost?

This covid tunnel vision is stressfully unsettling to witness. 

People in Australia used to know we lived in the best country on the planet. No word of a lie, I would believe that the vast majority of us truly and honestly believed this was the truth. I can't speak for every one of those people, but people here now hate what this country has become. I'm one of them. I now hear Australia compared to North Korea and China in terms of how we're governed. 

You're very much like our politicians here. The country has crumbled around us, but hey, at least we have less covid deaths than the rest of the world. None of the other tens of thousands of things that it takes to run a country matter, because we were the most panic stricken, fear-driven and disproportionate country on earth and saved everyone from covid death. Yay for us! Get some cameras on the streets of Victoria and capture the hoards of smiling faces. 

This entire pandemic has been lived in fear of the worst case scenario, because of what happened in other places on earth. But Australia isn't other places on earth. None of these doomsday scenarios have ever looked even on the verge of happening here, yet we've cowered our way through the entire thing and become a global spectacle, but not in a positive light. 

I'm sure each and every one of our 150,000 dead would swap places with you at the drop of a hat. 

You poor hard done by soul. 

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9 hours ago, Glen said:

I'm sure each and every one of our 150,000 dead would swap places with you at the drop of a hat. 

You poor hard done by soul. 

You're so single minded you can't even see how single minded you are.

Cardiovascular diseases claim 17.9 lives per year. So while 5 million people have died with (again, let's stress not from) covid, somewhere around 32 million people have died from Cardiovascular diseases in the same time. Why do you keep ignoring stuff like this? Those 32 millions people and their stories still don't matter to you? Covid deaths are still the only ones that matter? 

By your way of thinking, everything that has happened worldwide and in Australia is completely justified, in order to prevent 5 million global deaths in two years.

So tell me, for something that kills over 30 million people per year, why isn't every individual's blood pressure, cholesterol and weight monitored by our government? Why do we not have to check in on an app to ensure we have done the correct amount of exercise per week, and kept to a strict diet? Why are cigarettes and alcohol not illegal? 

Of course it is not lost on me that we're dealing with a contagious virus (which most the planet is now vaccinated against) vs something non-contagious, but all I've heard through this pandemic is that it's all about saving lives. So restricting, monitoring and policing our every move to save 5 million lives is okay, but the same is not okay to save over 30 million lives? 

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So the idiots who used deception to get into the police state of WA to watch the grand final were given 10 months jail time (3 months to be served)! People can steal cars, sell drugs, beat someone up, and get no jail time at all. Yet the media are gleefully so pleased with this ridiculous sentence. FFS Australia is insane right now.

This was what was actually said: "If they had covid (they didn't) they could have infected thousands (they didn’t) and could have led to many deaths (no-one died)"

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4 minutes ago, auslander said:

So the idiots who used deception to get into the police state of WA to watch the grand final were given 10 months jail time (3 months to be served)! People can steal cars, sell drugs, beat someone up, and get no jail time at all. Yet the media are gleefully so pleased with this ridiculous sentence. FFS Australia is insane right now.

This was what was actually said: "If they had covid (they didn't) they could have infected thousands (they didn’t) and could have led to many deaths (no-one died)"

Holy fuck, I hadn't heard this one yet. That's next level. Someone nuke this fucking country and let the next settlers start from scratch. That is beyond my comprehension even in light of how fucked up this country has become. 

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Breaking news, after good run of 1,000 plus we had over 2,000 yesterday.

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14 minutes ago, auslander said:

So the idiots who used deception to get into the police state of WA to watch the grand final were given 10 months jail time (3 months to be served)! People can steal cars, sell drugs, beat someone up, and get no jail time at all. Yet the media are gleefully so pleased with this ridiculous sentence. FFS Australia is insane right now.

This was what was actually said: "If they had covid (they didn't) they could have infected thousands (they didn’t) and could have led to many deaths (no-one died)"

I wonder what they'll do to the person that does inevitably bring covid to their state? Will he or she be imprisoned and each time a covid related case and or death happens in WA they will have another few years added to their sentence? Is that how it works now? 

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53 minutes ago, Geoff said:

You're so single minded you can't even see how single minded you are.

Cardiovascular diseases claim 17.9 lives per year. So while 5 million people have died with (again, let's stress not from) covid, somewhere around 32 million people have died from Cardiovascular diseases in the same time. Why do you keep ignoring stuff like this? Those 32 millions people and their stories still don't matter to you? Covid deaths are still the only ones that matter? 

By your way of thinking, everything that has happened worldwide and in Australia is completely justified, in order to prevent 5 million global deaths in two years.

So tell me, for something that kills over 30 million people per year, why isn't every individual's blood pressure, cholesterol and weight monitored by our government? Why do we not have to check in on an app to ensure we have done the correct amount of exercise per week, and kept to a strict diet? Why are cigarettes and alcohol not illegal? 

Of course it is not lost on me that we're dealing with a contagious virus (which most the planet is now vaccinated against) vs something non-contagious, but all I've heard through this pandemic is that it's all about saving lives. So restricting, monitoring and policing our every move to save 5 million lives is okay, but the same is not okay to save over 30 million lives? 

What has any of that got to do with what I said?

Of course those deaths matter but they are not as a result of a pandemic. Jesus. 

Those diseases will not overwhelm a health system, like ours was overwhelmed.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Glen said:

What has any of that got to do with what I said?

Of course those deaths matter but they are not as a result of a pandemic. Jesus. 

Those diseases will not overwhelm a health system, like ours was overwhelmed.

 

 

Sorry, I forgot again that it's still March 2020. Apologies, I can be a real dunce sometimes. 

I promise that, like you, I will continue to allow covid fear to rule my life. Thanks for setting me straight. 

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1 hour ago, Geoff said:

You're so single minded you can't even see how single minded you are.

Cardiovascular diseases claim 17.9 lives per year. So while 5 million people have died with (again, let's stress not from) covid, somewhere around 32 million people have died from Cardiovascular diseases in the same time. Why do you keep ignoring stuff like this? Those 32 millions people and their stories still don't matter to you? Covid deaths are still the only ones that matter? 

By your way of thinking, everything that has happened worldwide and in Australia is completely justified, in order to prevent 5 million global deaths in two years.

So tell me, for something that kills over 30 million people per year, why isn't every individual's blood pressure, cholesterol and weight monitored by our government? Why do we not have to check in on an app to ensure we have done the correct amount of exercise per week, and kept to a strict diet? Why are cigarettes and alcohol not illegal? 

Of course it is not lost on me that we're dealing with a contagious virus (which most the planet is now vaccinated against) vs something non-contagious, but all I've heard through this pandemic is that it's all about saving lives. So restricting, monitoring and policing our every move to save 5 million lives is okay, but the same is not okay to save over 30 million lives? 

also just to put it into perspective. Deaths in the UK in 2019 were just over 0.5 million - so around 1400 a day from ALL causes.

In Jan 2021 at the worst point of the pandemic nearly 2000 people a day in UK were dying from COVID. 

That is excess deaths if you compare totals from 2019 to 2020.

 

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1 minute ago, Geoff said:

Sorry, I forgot again that it's still March 2020. Apologies, I can be a real dunce sometimes. 

I promise that, like you, I will continue to allow covid fear to rule my life. Thanks for setting me straight. 

I attended a gig at the weekend :)

No fear here mate.

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1 minute ago, Glen said:

I attended a gig at the weekend :)

No fear here mate.

Ahh, so everyone ELSE needs to live in fear and be locked down for perpetuity... as long as it doesn't impact YOU. It's "those people" who are spreading COVID. Got it.

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2 minutes ago, heavyharmonies said:

Ahh, so everyone ELSE needs to live in fear and be locked down for perpetuity... as long as it doesn't impact YOU. It's "those people" who are spreading COVID. Got it.

wtf are you on about. 

My comment is directed purely at Geoff who keeps rolling out the 'im living in fear' comment.

I'm not.

I also don't trivialise a pandemic which has killed millions of people like he does.

Glad we got that straight 🙄

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You come off as supporting the most draconian restrictions on people's liberties around the world, i.e., "no restriction is too great because world-ending pandemic!!!!", all the while not being impacted by said restrictions. It rings utterly hollow and hypocritical.

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2 minutes ago, heavyharmonies said:

You come off as supporting the most draconian restrictions on people's liberties around the world, i.e., "no restriction is too great because world-ending pandemic!!!!", all the while not being impacted by said restrictions. It rings utterly hollow and hypocritical.

I've already lived through them thanks 

UK also had draconian restrictions.

So you think Geoff trivialising the pandemic is OK yeah? 

I was merely defending lockdowns as in the UK it did save 1000s of lives.

It was the right thing to do. 

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Yeah the restrictions, lockdowns, masking, vaccinations etc have been a real pain in the ass for everyone. But I haven't heard a better option for dealing with this virus. Should we have done nothing and just let the virus rampage through the world killing off the weak and unfortunate among us? Yes our personal liberties have been fucked over but shouldn't we sometimes just think of others and not just ourselves and do the right thing.....or have we gone back in time to when the weak must perish so the strong can survive....

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But it's not an all-or-nothing proposition IMO. Lockdowns were (and are) necessary at certain points along this process in certain regions, I don't disagree. However we see the range from no restrictions at all (certain states in the U.S.) to absolutely insanity striving for a 0-case threshold (regions in Australia currently). Glen seems to think that because lockdowns were necessary at one point in the UK, therefore what is currently going on in Australia is ok... at least that's how I'm reading the tenor of his posts. But it's not ok. The restrictions in Australia are incredibly overreaching and IMO go beyond what medical science says is appropriate, venturing into social engineering/controls. It's power-mad or paranoid individuals in positions of authority going well beyond what is necessary and appropriate.

Just because a certain level of restrictions is warranted in one area/region/country/state DOESN'T mean that the same restrictions are appropriate in others.

It's more nuanced than that.

Also, at least here in the U.S., while I understand the motivation, the vaccination mandates ("Get fully vaccinated or you're fired") set VERY dangerous precedent that could easily be abused moving forward. I understand the justification for it; I simply don't trust the government when it comes to that sort of power.

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Coming soon to a Western "democracy" near you:

LOCKDOWNS TO SAVE THE PLANET!

The scientific community has noticed that when people are forced to remain at home there is far less pollution and carbon, so to meet our commitments to the Kyoto protocols, everyone will have regular rolling lockdowns. We need to do this to address the biggest health issue in our history: climate change. 

You saw it here first.

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24 minutes ago, auslander said:

Coming soon to a Western "democracy" near you:

LOCKDOWNS TO SAVE THE PLANET!

The scientific community has noticed that when people are forced to remain at home there is far less pollution and carbon, so to meet our commitments to the Kyoto protocols, everyone will have regular rolling lockdowns. We need to do this to address the biggest health issue in our history: climate change. 

You saw it here first.

Now there is a plan...I see a future in politics for you...;)

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6 hours ago, heavyharmonies said:

But it's not an all-or-nothing proposition IMO. Lockdowns were (and are) necessary at certain points along this process in certain regions, I don't disagree. However we see the range from no restrictions at all (certain states in the U.S.) to absolutely insanity striving for a 0-case threshold (regions in Australia currently). Glen seems to think that because lockdowns were necessary at one point in the UK, therefore what is currently going on in Australia is ok... at least that's how I'm reading the tenor of his posts. But it's not ok. The restrictions in Australia are incredibly overreaching and IMO go beyond what medical science says is appropriate, venturing into social engineering/controls. It's power-mad or paranoid individuals in positions of authority going well beyond what is necessary and appropriate.

Just because a certain level of restrictions is warranted in one area/region/country/state DOESN'T mean that the same restrictions are appropriate in others.

It's more nuanced than that.

Also, at least here in the U.S., while I understand the motivation, the vaccination mandates ("Get fully vaccinated or you're fired") set VERY dangerous precedent that could easily be abused moving forward. I understand the justification for it; I simply don't trust the government when it comes to that sort of power.

wrong again.

see you always 'assume' you know what I'm implying without ever really asking. Steam right in with the hypocrite and hollow comments or he must be left etc etc. 🙄

If youve actually read anything I've posted in this thread you'd know that I've acknowledged that the Aus government have gone too far with their lockdown. 

People who strive for a zero case threshold are crazy i agree.

However what I will call out is people who continue to label this pandemic as no big deal, or that because more people die from cancer or heart disease globally that we shouldn't somehow not act to lockdown to save lives, and that anyone who disagrees with Geoff is labelled as fear stricken and living in a state of panic 🙄

As I said before its very easy to sit back and criticise government action when you haven't been affected. Yes the Aus government might have been over draconian , but we see what happens when governments weren't. 170K deaths now in the UK - here there has been heavy criticism of how we handled it. Locking down too late, not following scientific advice etc etc. The reports are pretty damning. 

Logic follows that if Aus had followed our great lead in terms of populace they would probably have over 50K dead by now.

And millions more affected in the families of the dead.

Not something to be proud of.

As I also said the current situation in Aus is mainly due to the governments complete failure to roll out the vaccines in time. In that respect they have been poor. That could be because they were so successful in the early stages that they took their eye off the ball, who knows.

However, Imo had they not locked down when delta struck at their low level of vaccination it would have been a very hard time indeed (obviously understanding that lockdowns are also hard). Over 2000 cases in some places now, even with draconian measures. it would have run riot if all the restrictions had been lifted too early. It still might, who knows. But at least with vaccinations at the right level now the deaths will hopefully be kept low and the hospitals won't be overwhelmed. 

Must get to work now so laters

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Too hard to get through to you, scholar. Just too painful. But on an interesting note, you're even more doom-laden than our trusty prime minister of panic, who estimated he's only saved 30,000 lives. You think we'd be at 50,000 fatalities. 

Let's just round it up to 80,000, ay? Only the most unrealistic and drastic statistic will do when it comes to all things covid. Australia is the least desired country on earth to be in at the moment, but we saved 80,000 lives so it's all okay. Everything is just fine.

I've never trivialised the stupid thing, just tried to balance your completely disproportionate fear and panic with reason. You talk like this virus kills the amount of people that survive it, and I look at the actual numbers for what they are. Your tunnel vision for the virus has stripped you of all sense of perspective and I just try to remind you there's a lot more to the world than just covid-19. But there's no point. As long as you pour every single resource into this single thing, absolutely nothing at all else matters. I mean, who gives a fuck about kids, ay? Not going to go through everything I've gone through page after page in this thread, but fuck absolutely everything (but covid). Do nothing, fear everything. Destroy everything in the name of covid. Everything's just fine. 

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