Valentine - s/t ; your thoughts on the production

[Geoff]

Just listening to this one again today and I can't help it... every time I listen to it I think - what is up with the production job on this one?

 

It's not an awful production job... it just sounds like either an unsigned band with a well produced album, or a label band with a tiny budget. But whatever it is, it doesn't sound like a band on a major label with an excellent producer should sound.

 

If you look at Neil Kernon's work from that era, is it just me, or is the Valentine album significantly the worst produced album of the lot?

 

Dokken – Under Lock and Key (1985)

Michael Bolton – Everybody's Crazy (1985)

Aviator – Aviator (1986)

Queensrÿche – Rage for Order (1986)

Shy – Excess All Areas (1986)

Dokken – Back for the Attack (1987)

Helix – Wild in the Streets (1987)

Queensrÿche – Queensrÿche (1988)

Evenrude – One Size Fits All (1989)

Britny Fox – Boys in Heat (1989)

FM – Tough It Out (1989)

Heaven's Edge – Heavens Edge (1990)

Valentine – Valentine (1990)

Lynch Mob – Wicked Sensation (1990)

XYZ – Hungry (1991)

Petra – Unseen Power (1991)

The Brave – Battle Cries (1991)

Flotsam and Jetsam – Cuatro (1992)

Star Star – The Love Drag Years (1992)

Shy – Welcome to the Madhouse (1994)

I was reading an interview that Andrew (melodicrock.com) did with him a few years ago on his site, and Andrew mentioned how Valentine must have been a band on the brink of success, and Kernon replied saying that everyone involved with the band thought they were going to be something significant, and that they were really surprised when the album tanked.

It probably would have tanked anyway, but is it at all possible that the less that perfect production job could have hindered it's success.

I mean, seriously, play these side by side (from the same year and producer) and tell me that Valentine didn't get the raw end of this deal;

That is a pretty huge difference, amirite? The drums alone are just worlds apart. And the overall clarity of Heaven's Edge compared to Valentine. It's criminal.

It's a really shame, because with a good production job the Valentine album is probably worth a good 85%+. As it is for me as it is, it just scraped in at the 80% mark.

[simo]

Yeah the production is kind of...... I don't know let's call it ''special'' and considering it was released in 1990 even more so

[Geoff]

Yeah the production is kind of...... I don't know let's call it ''special'' and considering it was released in 1990 even more so

 

Yep, when every album sounded like a million bucks... except poor Valentine.

[Glen]

I've never noticed to be honest.

 

You are comparing it with possibly the best sounding disc I own (or certainly top 10) in Heavens Edge so that might be a bit unfair

 

For the record the Valentine debut is superb - I rated it 95% !!

 

Would probably rank in my all time top 20.

[Geoff]

I've never noticed to be honest.

 

You are comparing it with possibly the best sounding disc I own (or certainly top 10) in Heavens Edge so that might be a bit unfair

 

For the record the Valentine debut is superb - I rated it 95% !!

 

Would probably rank in my all time top 20.

 

There's about 50 other albums in that list. Seriously, we are all familiar with a good bunch of Neil Kernon's work, and compared to everything else, and the reputation he rightly had... there is no way this one was up to scratch.

 

In 1985 and 1986, those Dokken and Aviator albums were probably about the most well produced albums of their respective years. The dude knew his craft, extremely well... but it just didn't come through on Valentine.

 

Anyway, Heaven's Edge is the most perfect example there is. Each album was recorded in 1990 and released on a major label, with Neil Kernon as producer. The fact that there is the huge difference in production quality that you can obviously detect, proves my point.

[Glen]

To be honest I only have these -

 

Dokken – Under Lock and Key (1985)

 

Michael Bolton – Everybody's Crazy (1985)

 

Aviator – Aviator (1986)

 

Shy – Excess All Areas (1986)

 

Dokken – Back for the Attack (1987)

 

FM – Tough It Out (1989)

 

Heaven's Edge – Heavens Edge (1990)

 

Lynch Mob – Wicked Sensation (1990)

 

XYZ – Hungry (1991)

 

Only maybe Heaven's Edge, FM and Aviator stick out as being significantly better, from memory.

 

The Dokken cds were all re-mastered recently for good reason, they sound pretty awful to me.

 

IMHO of course,.

[Geoff]

To be honest I only have these -

 

Dokken – Under Lock and Key (1985)

 

Michael Bolton – Everybody's Crazy (1985)

 

Aviator – Aviator (1986)

 

Shy – Excess All Areas (1986)

 

Dokken – Back for the Attack (1987)

 

FM – Tough It Out (1989)

 

Heaven's Edge – Heavens Edge (1990)

 

Lynch Mob – Wicked Sensation (1990)

 

XYZ – Hungry (1991)

 

Only maybe Heaven's Edge, FM and Aviator stick out as being significantly better, from memory.

 

The Dokken cds were all re-mastered recently for good reason, they sound pretty awful to me.

 

IMHO of course,.

 

Wow, really? 'Back for the attack' was on par for 1987, but I thought 'Under lock and key' really stood out in 1985 as a marvellously produced album. I think all those others are excellent too, though.

[Glen]

 

To be honest I only have these -

 

Dokken – Under Lock and Key (1985)

 

Michael Bolton – Everybody's Crazy (1985)

 

Aviator – Aviator (1986)

 

Shy – Excess All Areas (1986)

 

Dokken – Back for the Attack (1987)

 

FM – Tough It Out (1989)

 

Heaven's Edge – Heavens Edge (1990)

 

Lynch Mob – Wicked Sensation (1990)

 

XYZ – Hungry (1991)

 

Only maybe Heaven's Edge, FM and Aviator stick out as being significantly better, from memory.

 

The Dokken cds were all re-mastered recently for good reason, they sound pretty awful to me.

 

IMHO of course,.

Wow, really? 'Back for the attack' was on par for 1987, but I thought 'Under lock and key' really stood out in 1985 as a marvellously produced album. I think all those others are excellent too, though.

 

To be honest I was more thinking Back For The Attack. Under Lock and Key is actually pretty good (for 1985) but having said that was it any better than say Magnum, Mr Mister, Bon Jovi, Coney Hatch, Van Zant, Honeymoon Suite, Marillion (you wouldn't know that but its an amazing production job), etc etc.........

 

Probably not.

[Geoff]

 

 

To be honest I only have these -

 

Dokken – Under Lock and Key (1985)

 

Michael Bolton – Everybody's Crazy (1985)

 

Aviator – Aviator (1986)

 

Shy – Excess All Areas (1986)

 

Dokken – Back for the Attack (1987)

 

FM – Tough It Out (1989)

 

Heaven's Edge – Heavens Edge (1990)

 

Lynch Mob – Wicked Sensation (1990)

 

XYZ – Hungry (1991)

 

Only maybe Heaven's Edge, FM and Aviator stick out as being significantly better, from memory.

 

The Dokken cds were all re-mastered recently for good reason, they sound pretty awful to me.

 

IMHO of course,.

Wow, really? 'Back for the attack' was on par for 1987, but I thought 'Under lock and key' really stood out in 1985 as a marvellously produced album. I think all those others are excellent too, though.

 

To be honest I was more thinking Back For The Attack. Under Lock and Key is actually pretty good (for 1985) but having said that was it any better than say Magnum, Mr Mister, Bon Jovi, Coney Hatch, Van Zant, Honeymoon Suite, Marillion (you wouldn't know that but its an amazing production job), etc etc.........

 

Probably not.

 

 

Probably not significantly better, but defo right up the top anyway. Probably more balls than Bon Jovi, and Magnum... can't remember the others too well, production-wise.

 

Christian Matt just pointed out that Petra and The Brave were produced by The Elefante creeps, so maybe that list isn't 100% correct (thanks wikipedia!). But apart from the two christian bands, I'm pretty sure the rest are Kernon's work.

[Jez]

Always lacked bottom end to my ears (like quite a few from the era ) ,which a good remastering job might bring up to scratch, otherwise, I have no complaints with it. Great album

[kourosofsteel3]

Yeah, not enough backbone after all those cowbells in some of these albums!

[lettard]

Yeah excellent album but the production was thin on the ground for the time.

[gener8tr]

Blue Tears S/T... I wish ALL albums were produced as well as that one.

[Kristian]

Remember that second Every Mother's Nightmare album? Talk about bad production job, such a shame.

 

And yeah, Valentine definitely sounds thin compared to Heaven's Edge, but not too bad on its own though.

[lettard]

Remember that second Every Mother's Nightmare album? Talk about bad production job, such a shame.

 

And yeah, Valentine definitely sounds thin compared to Heaven's Edge, but not too bad on its own though.

Agreed, & I love that EMN cd but the production sucks,had they had the production from the debut with the tunes from Wake Up Screaming it woulda been nice

[Geoff]

 

Remember that second Every Mother's Nightmare album? Talk about bad production job, such a shame.

 

And yeah, Valentine definitely sounds thin compared to Heaven's Edge, but not too bad on its own though.

Agreed, & I love that EMN cd but the production sucks,had they had the production from the debut with the tunes from Wake Up Screaming it woulda been nice

 

 

Regarding EMN, I always said the same, that if they had the debut's production job with the new songs, 'Wake up screaming' would have been great. But even if they'd just had the whole album produced by the guy who produced 'Slip and fall' and 'If I had my' way,' which sound 100% better than the rest of the album.

 

I don't have the CD here with me, but those two songs were produced by one guy, and the rest of the album produced by another. Massive difference;

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPz1jZyWVKg

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hiv-Tzhz8Q&nohtml5=False

[JC_AOR]

Been playing Valentine a bit the last few days. Absolutely brilliant songs!! Agreed the production isn't as good as those albums listed early in this topic but overall it's more than tolerable. Strange though how their can be such a difference with the same guy producing this as 'Everybody's Crazy', for example.

[Glen]

Might have been budget?

[lettard]

 

 

Remember that second Every Mother's Nightmare album? Talk about bad production job, such a shame.

 

And yeah, Valentine definitely sounds thin compared to Heaven's Edge, but not too bad on its own though.

Agreed, & I love that EMN cd but the production sucks,had they had the production from the debut with the tunes from Wake Up Screaming it woulda been nice

 

 

I don't have the CD here with me, but those two songs were produced by one guy, and the rest of the album produced by another. Massive difference

 

 

 

 

Yeah Kevin Elison produced the two you mentioned & Jim Gaines produced the rest,strange decision by the band on that one?

[Geoff]

 

 

 

Remember that second Every Mother's Nightmare album? Talk about bad production job, such a shame.

 

And yeah, Valentine definitely sounds thin compared to Heaven's Edge, but not too bad on its own though.

Agreed, & I love that EMN cd but the production sucks,had they had the production from the debut with the tunes from Wake Up Screaming it woulda been nice

 

 

I don't have the CD here with me, but those two songs were produced by one guy, and the rest of the album produced by another. Massive difference

 

 

 

 

Yeah Kevin Elison produced the two you mentioned & Jim Gaines produced the rest,strange decision by the band on that one?

 

 

Haha, thanks for the names. It was somewhere in the mind, but hard to remember without looking at the back of the CD. Yeah, really strange decision. And a really awkward one, considering how much better the two tracks produced by Elison sound compared to the rest of the album. A massive shame they didn't sign him up for the whole project. Huge missed opportunity.

[Leykis101]

Well I always thought it rocked, I give every disc my Jeep test, if it sounds good in my jeep system, it's good to go, Running On Luck always sounded killer, I don't know what you all are listening on, but Kernons production if anything sounded like he was reaching to far into the future, but didn't have the tech to hit what he was aiming for, the electric drum sound might be it, but Hugo's vocal production is right on, if anything I would gripe about its the shitty fucking lack of mastering that seems to have been done on it, a 10 minute master job, outside of that put it on a huge system turn up Naughty Girl or Running On Luck, and tell me where the bad production is?? I just don't hear it, and everyone knows that im on here constantly bitching about production jobs.

[KarpetRydOFunk]

Well I always thought it rocked, I give every disc my Jeep test, if it sounds good in my jeep system, it's good to go, Running On Luck always sounded killer, I don't know what you all are listening on, but Kernons production if anything sounded like he was reaching to far into the future, but didn't have the tech to hit what he was aiming for, the electric drum sound might be it, but Hugo's vocal production is right on, if anything I would gripe about its the shitty fucking lack of mastering that seems to have been done on it, a 10 minute master job, outside of that put it on a huge system turn up Naughty Girl or Running On Luck, and tell me where the bad production is?? I just don't hear it, and everyone knows that im on here constantly bitching about production jobs.

Among many other things. ;}

 

But you're not on here much anymore. What happened, brother? Don't you miss us?

[Captain Howdy]

Unless an album sounds like a cheap demo I could not give a damn about production. As long as the songs and band are good and it doesn't sound like it was recorded straight to an old mono cassette player, I don't even notice production.

[Leykis101]

I have actually been playing alot Nolan, and helping a couple bands record their shit, Geoff knows all about one of them, between that, and blowing out a disc in my back, oh and doing 30 days for speeding tickets, my winter was actually the busiest ive had in ages, I should be back around more, of course I missed you, but the other thing is, If I dont show up in cycles, I tend to get under peoples skin, then they hate my guts, at least my exes, but I wont be working this spring, so I will probably be on here complaining, and talking shit, until dan shuts me down, or you all run me off the forum, thanks for checking though.

[Leykis101]

Unless an album sounds like a cheap demo I could not give a damn about production. As long as the songs and band are good and it doesn't sound like it was recorded straight to an old mono cassette player, I don't even notice production.

Yeah I gotta disagree, if a killer song is not well produced, it tanks it for me, I might still like the song, but lets give an example, Dynazty Hunger For Love, now I dont know if you heard the version the band produced, but after whats his name, the Swede went back and remixed the entire album, play the 2 versions side by side, and you'll see what im saying, the original doesnt even hold a candle to the well produced version, but I know many friends who dont even notice the production, so your certainly not alone, I just happen to be weird about production, and hate it when a killer song isnt completely done to the best of its ability, it's almost a shame. to me.