Major trade/sale disagreement!

[cherokee 0]

Today I received a FIRE DEPT-Things Are Tought All Over CD-r from Josh Dowdle
(metal_4_ever), and I experienced that sent me a CD-R for $ 750!

He promised me a original silver pressed FIRE DEPT. cd,and shipped me a CD-r for $750!!

In retrospect, it turned out that he had a lot of people fooled!

Cheated from me out of money of revenge, and Josh do not want to refund!

No one should trade on him, he is a cheater !!

 

[EDIT: I have changed the title of the thread so as to be less inflammatory, and it also has ramifications to people beyond the two parties currently involved. -Dan]

[heavyharmonies 205]

I have PM'ed him and asked him to respond here publicly.

[Metal 4 Ever 0]

Amazing how the details of this transaction were all left out to favor your position Peter Soos. For the record, I 100% admit to sending Peter a band issued CD-R of Fire Dept. for $750. But let’s get one thing straight, this is not the beginning of the story.

 

Peter and I made a trade a few weeks back. Peter sent me 9 CDs as he described in “EX Condition” I received CDs that had tab marks, writing on some of the inserts, and one of the CDs had the spines ripped off and taped back on. I gave peter 3 options that I felt would make things fair. One involved him sending me a payment to make up for the damages, trading back, or working out something along the lines of him sending me replacement CDs. Peter said that he was not at fault, and I should have asked him specific questions about the spines being ripped off and taped back on (being that this is not implied when saying that the disc and inserts are in excellent condition).

 

Peter was not interested in working with me on this, as he had the upper hand. Peter did say that if I would sell him a Fire Dept. CD for $650, he would add another $100 to the trade. Well, now were going to fight fire with fire. Peter was not specific on whether or not he wanted the silver pressed version or the band issued CD-R version. (I assure you this was only fighting fire with fire, and is not a normal practice of mine).

 

It was never my intention of keeping things this way. I just needed the upper hand to get Peter to actually try and work something out. I was interested in only keeping a portion of the payment to make up for the damaged items he sent me, or giving Peter the option of me sending him a CD or two to make up the difference. But instead, Peter has threatened to come to the USA and kill me. So this is where things stand.

 

I do not appreciate getting taken advantage of, and I do not wish to take advantage of other people. This issue could have been handled like adults before any CDs were sent, after CDs arrived, and even after Peter got the CD-R from me. I had no intention of keeping things the way they are, and I still have no intentions of it. But Peter bringing things out here in public sure dose throw a wrench into the mix. I let him know that I was not wanting to keep things as they were, and posting here on HH was his reaction.

 

So there you have it. This is the mess that is currently going on, and gain, I do not deny Peter’s accusations towards me. I 100% admit to all of it.

[heavyharmonies 205]

Originally, the moderation team and I had considered banning Josh for what seems to be a clear cut case of fraud (intentionally sending someone a home-made CD-R when they are expecting an original pressed disc is fraud and unacceptable, no matter how justified you feel; two wrongs don't make a right!) however after some reflection (and much discussion), I have decided to restore this thread. I think it is important that both sides of this issue remain public, and I am going to urge the two parties to try and come to a mutually acceptable solution.

Banning would not help Peter, and would in effect push Josh to simply try the same tactics elsewhere, whereas hopefully public pressure here and the realization that everything is exposed to the public will help reach a solution that works for both parties.

Now, that said, assuming that what both Peter and Josh have recounted is the truth, there is blame to be had on both sides.

1. When trading/selling CDs (or any collectible for that matter), it is CRITICAL to accurately describe the condition of the goods. The condition flaws that Josh says existed with the discs he received are inexcusable. Peter should know better.
   
2. That said, if Josh was unhappy with the results of the trade and felt he got a raw deal, the solution was NOT to delibrately rip Peter off, which he apprently did. He knew that what he was sending Peter was NOT what Peter was expecting to receive. Period. End of discussion. So what could Josh have done? He could have posted here in the good/bad sellet/trader forum. That's what it's here for: to bring issues like this to light in hopes of scrutiny and peer pressure making it right. He could have contacted me or any other moderator and asked us to intervene in the situation... but he did neither of these.
   
3. If Peter did in fact make threats as Josh claims, that too is unacceptable, although I understand the frustration, as Peter at that point had no recourse (more on that later). I have not seen the actual language that was sent or received, nor do I wish to. Understanding Peter is difficult, as English is not his native language. There may have been misinterpretation or simply venting. Regardless, we need to be careful on what we say and how we say it. Threats of violence are not permitted.
   
4. Peter made the mistake of Paying Josh via PayPal gift payment. THIS IS ALMOST ALWAYS A BAD IDEA! I don't care what the circumstances are. If you pay by Gift payment, you lose all recourse in the event things go wrong. If ANYONE is asking you to use a Gift payment option for merchandise, this should set off alarm bells as a possible scam! The only exceptions are (1) you are indeed sending the money as a gift or donation with no expectation of anything in return, or (2) it is to someone close that you have worked with MANY times before and that you trust IMPLICITLY. Otherwise, do NOT use the Gift payment option.

Ok.... so there's what has been done, and now there's what needs to be done moving forward.

What the moderation team and I are urging both Peter and Josh to do is the following:

Reverse EVERYTHING, including the original trade that caused this. Each party pays for the shipping costs to return everything they received (using trackable methods), and then Josh refunds the remainder of the funds and you both go their separate ways. You both will be out some shipping costs, but better that than someone being a "winner" and the other a "loser".

This thread will remain public as a cautionary reminder of how things can go bad in a hurry and how NOT to handle it. Prospective buyers/sellers/traders can then make choices accordingly. At this point, no one is being banned from the forum. I reserve the right to change that as I see fit.

This should be a fun hobby, not a stressful one that causes loss or ill will.

-Dan

[cherokee 0]

I never wanted to hurt Josh, or scammed him! what I told to him It was a sudden reaction, and because I saw that he did not want to give back 750 dollars, and he just said to me that it will be a good lesson for me that next time I describe more precisely the conditions.

$ 750, loss ratio was not equal proportions his problem, because what I sent to him cd's original factory silver pressed cd's, but I told him in advance that these are used condition CDs, not in mint condition!

what he did not know,just when he got the CDs that had problems with the condition of 3 cd's, and was satisfied with 6 cd's!

I admitted to my mistake, really could have been more detailed description in the errors, but because I felt this to be mistake,I offered him $ 100 and he will forget the things!

He accepted this, and that's the point!

eBay Shop which are condition description is a general approach, since due to the large quantity of this capacity would not be, but if someone is interested in more detail in the conditions, I was always helpful, and I used to help everyone.

everyone else how to evaluate the condition of a product,what is USED!!, but since not entirely real what it was written,because we are people,everyone makes mistakes,but in the not entitle anyone to premeditated one of the next trading scammed from person $ 750 for a homemade cd-r!

When I offered him $ 100 and he accepted, I admitted to my mistake, this is the seemed to me that we closed thing. I do not intentionally hurt him, but inattention was from me, but he scammed me with premeditation.

This transaction was a few weeks later, when the agreement was to send him $ 650 for FIRE DEPT. cd (original and not homemade cd-r) and $ 100 in compensation, and he was satisfied. So I suffered losses, because value of the cd-r is $ 1 or less! Yes,I got $300 partial refund,but this not enough!!

So my suggestion!

Keep your $ 150 Josh, this also is too much, but let it be, I also made a mistake, and I ask $300 refund yet , and then let us have peace on!

I think that this would be fair.

How to decided,Josh??

[Mullethead 0]

I'm going to stay quiet...

[martinsane 102]

I'm going to stay quiet...

That's a first...

[nyoilers 90]

I think I bought from 3 different people on this site and never had a problem.

[cherokee 0]

I think I bought from 3 different people on this site and never had a problem.

I have bought a lot CD's from Josh, but I never thought from him that he is trading with homemade CD-r version, especially not for $ 750! Once the person doing such a thing first time,will do next time,because have in his blood. The saddest part is that the another board has written a country before the world that he did not regret what he did.

[Mullethead 0]

 

I'm going to stay quiet...

 

That's a first...

Don't get use to it

[Metal 4 Ever 0]

I admitted to my mistake

 

To hell you admitted your mistake. Not once did you admit it. You were not willing to work with me, and I had not other choice but to comply to your terrible $100 option. I was at your mercy, as I gave you 3 different options that would work for me, and you stated that you were not interested and you did nothing wrong. You stated that I needed to be more specific in my questions (as your description of excellent condition was inclusive of having the spines on the back insert torn off and taped back on), yet you were not specific in which Fire Dept CD you wanted (sure, in ANY other circumstances, I would not have ever assumed you were after the band made CD-R).

 

For the record, I gave Peter a $300 refund on a few conditions. We both walk away from this (even if not totally satisfied) and never contact each other again. Oh, and no more death threats. As soon as he gets his $300, he's posting all over the internet on what a scammer I am. I do not regret giving Peter back $300, I had no intention of keeping it, but I absolutely regret ever trading with him.

 

If Peter would have proposed the trade of his 9 CDs (with accurate condition descriptions) and $450 all for my original Surrender - s/t and my Fire Dept. (band issued CD-R).... I would have told him "Hell No!" Again, I was not going to keep all his money and refunded him $300. This was not a win/lose or win/win situation, this was without a doubt a lose/lose situation.

 

I am not under the illusion that I'm this super easy going guy, but I'm also not some sort of scammer who was trying to pull a fast one on Peter. Seriously, take just a moment and put yourself in my shoes.... If someone traded you 9 CDs (some in extremely poor conditions) for an original Surrender - s/t, what would you be thinking? I'm pretty sure it's not "Oh well, shit happens"

[Geoff 270]

 

 

I'm going to stay quiet...

That's a first...

Don't get use to it

 

 

I'm trying hard, but I will also be silent. Kind of. I have to say that I am so stunned that trades like these still occur when these CDs aren't worth $1 anymore to 99.9% of the world's population, let alone a $750 CD (ZOMFG!). Or 9 CDs (any 9 CDs would startle me, but I'm guessing these were other rare discs) for one single CD that was re-issued a few years ago, remastered and with bonus tracks. I know the mind of you die-hard CD traders is a place I will never, never comprehend, but holy wow, doods, it's a strange, strange place to simple folk like myself.

 

Anyway, good luck guys. Doesn't look like this is going to resolve itself, but yeah, just... good luck.

[cherokee 0]

I do not agree with the words of Josh because of his problems, which

he refers to is not equal to the ratio of the earlier claim of $ 350!

$ 150 would be more willing to accept, but I do not accept that he

sent me a $ 1 is worth less homemade CD-r for $ 750 and another $ 450 to keep with you!

[Jez 40]

The only answer here is to completely reverse this trade, and in my opinion, this should be done as soon as possible and for BOTH of you to walk away from this situation you have BOTH got yourselves into. You'd lose out a little on charges, postage etc, but what the hell, it beats repeating yourselves continuously and getting absolutely nowhere. Time for people to grow up and start behaving like adults I think and put and end to this debacle..

[Metal 4 Ever 0]

The only answer here is to completely reverse this trade, and in my opinion, this should be done as soon as possible and for BOTH of you to walk away from this situation you have BOTH got yourselves into. You'd lose out a little on charges, postage etc, but what the hell, it beats repeating yourselves continuously and getting absolutely nowhere. Time for people to grow up and start behaving like adults I think and put and end to this debacle..

 

Jez, I agree... to a point. I suggested 3 options and one of them was to completely trade back. Unfortunately, now, there is no way I will ever be willing to receive a package in the mail from Peter, not after the death threat I got from him (or Andre aka Melodicrockoz who also has made threatening statements to me). There is no win/win solution, though when Peter agreed to my refund of $300, I let him know that even though I was never going to hear back from him (Yeah, like that really happened) I did wish him to have a happy life.

[Metal 4 Ever 0]

I do not agree with the words of Josh because of his problems, which

he refers to is not equal to the ratio of the earlier claim of $ 350!

$ 150 would be more willing to accept, but I do not accept that he

sent me a $ 1 is worth less homemade CD-r for $ 750 and another $ 450 to keep with you!

 

Peter, I too do not accept the way this deal turned out. So let's act like adults and walk away. We are getting nowhere and slitting our own throats with every word we continue to spew out here on HH. Let's walk away from this no win situation, and quit acting like little children on a playground.

[Delbert 8]

Very interesting thread.........having been on the short end of MANY bad deals in the past, especially concerning E Bay, I take issue with one point Dan brought up:

 

"That said, if Josh was unhappy with the results of the trade and felt he got a raw deal, the solution was NOT to delibrately rip Peter off, which he apprently did. He knew that what he was sending Peter was NOT what Peter was expecting to receive. Period. End of discussion. So what could Josh have done? He could have posted here in the good/bad sellet/trader forum. That's what it's here for: to bring issues like this to light in hopes of scrutiny and peer pressure making it right. He could have contacted me or any other moderator and asked us to intervene in the situation... but he did neither of these."

 

Dan, I don't believe that would have solved the problem. You do not really have any authority or leverage to enforce any transaction results. Actually, the end result would be what we have right now.......back and forth posts.....he said then he said........!!!

 

Sometimes, to get someone's attention, you have to hit them in the pocketbook!! We can all argue over the merits of each trader, but, in my opinion, the way to resolve the issue is thru a neutral party.......Such as the moderator of this forum by handling it in this manner......

 

Both parties forward all CDs and funds to the site administrator for safe keeping until all monies and discs have been received. This must be done at each's expense with tracking. Once all monies and property have been received by the administrator, then those items be forwarded with tracking to each trader. (Each trader contributes equally to the shipping costs from the administrator). Once each trader has received his property and monies, the issue will be deemed resolved and posted on this forum accordingly. Each party goes his separate way and the postings Closed with no further discussion.

 

Yes, I know right away, the moderators will say "we don't want to become directly involved". Unfortunately, you are involved and have chosen to become involved in a limited way already......

 

Okay, that's my thought on this whole matter.......

 

Time to move on.....................

[heavyharmonies 205]

Josh,

 

What you're not getting is that your proposed solution is to leave Peter having paid $450 for a homemade CD-R. While that mey be hunky dory from your standpoint, it's still a ripoff.

 

 

 

Delbert,

 

What you are proposing is untenable because that then causes me financial and personal liability.

 

1. One of them takes issue with what they received; the other party claims that isn't what they sent. Blammo, it now becomes my fault. Given that the two of them already distrust one another, that is not a minefield I am willing to step into.

 

2. Routing PayPal refunds and exchanges through me ( a ) causes potential tax issues and ( b ) leaves me personally vulnerable to future chargeback issues where I would be the one left holding the bag in all this mess.

 

No. Heavy Harmonies is not and never will be an escrow service. The moderators and I have suggested a solution that we feel minimizes loss to both parties. Whether they decide to act upon it is ultimately up to them, but I will NOT be taking on liability because two traders here can't play nice with one another. I would sooner shut down the buy/sell/trade forums.

 

-Dan

 

[EDIT: I have changed the title of the thread so as to be less inflammatory, and it also has ramifications to people beyond the two parties currently involved.]

[cherokee 0]

One thing I do not understand the whole, when I repeatedly asked Josh from that he will be satisfied with the $ 100 in restitution, he said, that's fine,because he do not want anger between us, and he agreed that the next transaction of extra $ 100 will be paid to him, why can not he told me at this time that there is an available Fire Dept. cd, but it will be $350 more expensive than what I offered him $650?

This would have been the solution and not the fact that he will wait for I paid to him $750, and pre-planned way to send me the homemage fake cd-r,what is value of one dollar!

Yes, I would knew it is still included inside the spike, it is possible that I would have said to him, listen Josh, you get 350 dollars more money for it (original Fire Dept. cd), but then this should have been communicated with me before, and then I got at least one original silver pressed cd, I would not this shit!

I have closed this topic because we could never agree on this matter!

[Metal 4 Ever 0]

To be clear, the CD-R is 100% a band issued CD-R. I actually owned the CD-R before owning the original. Check out Fire Dept.'s facebook page, they have done some re-union shows, this is where they were selling their re-issue CD-Rs. I bought the CD-R re-issue from the band. This CD-R is much like the Trash Can Baby CD-R which sells for like $100 on ebay, hell the Fire Dept. bootleg on Timewarp sells for $70. I just want it to be clear, I did not make the CD-R, it was official released by the band.

[martinsane 102]

To be clear, the CD-R is 100% a band issued CD-R. I actually owned the CD-R before owning the original. Check out Fire Dept.'s facebook page, they have done some re-union shows, this is where they were selling their re-issue CD-Rs. I bought the CD-R re-issue from the band. This CD-R is much like the Trash Can Baby CD-R which sells for like $100 on ebay, hell the Fire Dept. bootleg on Timewarp sells for $70. I just want it to be clear, I did not make the CD-R, it was official released by the band.

 

And to state the obvious, if some idiot with more dollars than sense wants to spent $75.00, $150.00 or $500.00 on a cdr and that idiot KNOWS its a cdr than more power to them. The same can't be said if the person doesn't know.

 

As GI Joe would say: "Knowing is half the battle".

 

Anything less is just dishonest.

[Metal 4 Ever 0]

 

To be clear, the CD-R is 100% a band issued CD-R. I actually owned the CD-R before owning the original. Check out Fire Dept.'s facebook page, they have done some re-union shows, this is where they were selling their re-issue CD-Rs. I bought the CD-R re-issue from the band. This CD-R is much like the Trash Can Baby CD-R which sells for like $100 on ebay, hell the Fire Dept. bootleg on Timewarp sells for $70. I just want it to be clear, I did not make the CD-R, it was official released by the band.

 

And to state the obvious, if some idiot with more dollars than sense wants to spent $75.00, $150.00 or $500.00 on a cdr and that idiot KNOWS its a cdr than more power to them. The same can't be said if the person doesn't know.

 

As GI Joe would say: "Knowing is half the battle".

 

Anything less is just dishonest.

 

 

An eye for an eye my friend. You fuck me over, expect the same treatment.

[cherokee 0]

 

 

To be clear, the CD-R is 100% a band issued CD-R. I actually owned the CD-R before owning the original. Check out Fire Dept.'s facebook page, they have done some re-union shows, this is where they were selling their re-issue CD-Rs. I bought the CD-R re-issue from the band. This CD-R is much like the Trash Can Baby CD-R which sells for like $100 on ebay, hell the Fire Dept. bootleg on Timewarp sells for $70. I just want it to be clear, I did not make the CD-R, it was official released by the band.

And to state the obvious, if some idiot with more dollars than sense wants to spent $75.00, $150.00 or $500.00 on a cdr and that idiot KNOWS its a cdr than more power to them. The same can't be said if the person doesn't know.

 

As GI Joe would say: "Knowing is half the battle".

 

Anything less is just dishonest.

 

An eye for an eye my friend. You fuck me over, expect the same treatment.

 

One thing I do not understand the whole, when I repeatedly asked Josh from that he will be satisfied with the $ 100 in restitution, he said, that's fine,because he do not want anger between us, and he agreed that the next transaction of extra $ 100 will be paid to him, why can not he told me at this time that there is an available Fire Dept. cd, but it will be $350 more expensive than what I offered him $650?

This would have been the solution and not the fact that he will wait for I paid to him $750, and pre-planned way to send me the home made fake cd-r,what is value of one dollar!

Yes, I would knew it is still included inside the spike, it is possible that I would have said to him, listen Josh, you get 350 dollars more money for it (original Fire Dept. cd), but then this should have been communicated with me before, and then I got at least one original silver pressed cd, I would not this shit!!!!! What are you talking about "eye for an eye" ?? You want the world to believe that the band produced a CD-R version ?? There is not even value of one dollar is not, my little friend, well fuck off me and the whole world knows this already !! Yes, you are right Terry Martinson in everything, I did not knew that Josh not sending the original to me, and this scam is called.It might be that you got 3 cd's weaker condition, but it is factory original CD, and not a cd-r !! Have you had the opportunity in your hand,because already you got $750, and all you should have told me, even asking from me $ 250 yet, and only then send the original Fire Dept.CD, otherwise I just get a CD-R version, but this is not it was your energy, but that yes that well Fuck off with me!!!

[AlphaMale 390]

And now it's starting to get ugly.

 

I hate being scammed and know how that feels. A cdr for $750??? I would have to kick somebody's ass.

[Metal 4 Ever 0]

And now it's starting to get ugly.

 

I hate being scammed and know how that feels. A cdr for $750??? I would have to kick somebody's ass.

 

If someone sent me CDs in FUCKING SHIT condition, I'd feel the same way.