A serious question about "Heaven"

[Geoff]

Thanks for the replies guys, and Mark, I knew I could count on you. Some interesting thoughts there on "heaven".

 

So, in my usual long-winded expository way, I am saying I believe that in the end, everyone gets to Heaven. Some just choose to believe in this lifetime and will be spared any taste of Hell, others will refuse to believe in this lifetime and will have to face temporary (not eternal) punishment which will ultimately lead them to belief.

Guys, I have to ask. If this God you all believe in were really this bitter and needy that he would send an otherwise beautiful human to 'hell' (even if only temporarily), just because this person did not conform to some religious ideas that the ages have conjured up... is this really a being you think deserves your worship?

 

For example, Donna spends her whole life helping sick children. At home she works in a hospital, she travels to poverty-stricken countries and helps the poor, she loves her parents and her children and would die for them... but she thinks for herself and whilst she might acknowledge there is "something" out there she refuses to submit herself to a religion and worship what could be seen as a Santa Claus-like being. And she refuses to apologise to God for living her life as best she can.

 

And then we have Celeste, the f*cked up drug addict, prostitute, alley fighter who disowns her parents after physically beating them and is just a real prick of a person... but she finds God at the age of 25. She apologises to God for all she did and goes to church every Sunday from the age of 25 onwards, prays to God etc. and tells other people about the glory of God. But she is still generally just not a very nice person and constantly rubs people the wrong way.

 

Now, you're going to tell me that just because Donna isn't a follower of God that she will be sent to hell by your wonderful God whilst Celeste (or a murderer who finds God from a prison cell) enjoys a nice comfortable spot in "heaven"?

 

Dudes, I don't get it. The picture of God that religion paints would make me despise him. Even if this whole dying on the cross for our sins could possibly be a reality, why would this amazing being be so needy that he requires followers and worshippers to dedicate their entire lives to him and mould how they live to how they think he wants them to live? If I'd have invented a God I'd have made him a whole lot more modest and humble.

 

Basically, the way I read the above is that whether you like it or not, God will make you worship him, even if he has to put you through hell, literally. What a super being!

 

Anyway, sorry... hope that doesn't come out harsh or anything. Just hopefully continuing the friendly discussion.

 

 

Forgive me if I'll get back to the subject. But I haven't read anywhere that God will make you worship him, even if he has to put you through hell. The God that I worship doesn't need my worship, respect, money, time, good deeds or anything that I can do, have or give. God doesn't want to force anyone to worship him. Can you count the people who blaspheme his name? If He is such a god that people want to think of Him, then why didn't He zap everyone who uses his name in vain. The big problem is we all made up this idea of god that is vengeful, unapproachable, needy and self-centered. What made you think that the god in your finite, limited mind IS exactly the god that exist? The idea of "heavenly bliss" is for those who want to be with the One who loves them so much that He died for them. It is only for those who want to be with this God who is in heaven. And if you don't want to be with Him, then that is okey, too. He won't force you. But just as metalmaniac wisely stated, we will all realize why we will fall on our knees to worship Christ. He won't break our knees to do that.

 

And about that Hell thing. It is written that this Earth will be replaced with a new one. This old, tired one will be burned (that is why Nero, knowing the beliefs of 1st century Christians blamed the great fire in Rome to them - which he himself started) and to my belief, those who don't want to be with God will stay here.

 

No one can tell you with mere words how good this certain food is, or how exciting is that new ride is in that newly opened theme park. But just TRY it. Some people tried and they loved it. That is how it is with believing in God and experiencing his kindness.

Hey mate, so just so I'm clear, everyone who follows God will go to heaven and live in joy with God, but those who do not follow a religion or believe in the Christian's version of God will be left with souls that will wonder earth until it turns to fire where we will eternally remain in the burning remains of our Earth?

 

Obviously God is in control of everything, but to leave His children to that fate (to eternally burn), just because they did not follow christianity seems very harsh, and the actions of a spiteful, cruel God.

[Geoff]

Part of the problem is that people think of "good" in solely human terms, but based on the Bible, even our "righteousness" is as filthy rags in the eyes of God. God could not truly be God if He wasn't absolutely holy, and His holiness cannot tolerate anything other than pure holiness from the humanity He created. When people say, "I'm a good person, so God should let me into Heaven," they fail to understand that what they consider "good" is still tainted next to the absolute holiness of God.

But let's not forget that all we are, really, at the moment, is humans. For now anyway. So there's nothing wrong with thinking about "good" in human terms. Common sense tells us that killing and stealing etc. is not a "good" thing. "His holiness cannot tolerate anything other than pure holiness?" Well sorry mate, but in that case His Holiness f*cked up when he created the human race. And if he cannot tolerate anything but sheer perfection than he should wipe us all out and start again.

 

Why would you want to follow a being with unreachable standards set for you... Standards that if not met he will not tolerate you?

 

It also amuses me that people question God's "rules." God is God and therefore He makes the rules, not us. People sometimes ask me, "Why did God set up salvation this way?" Because He's God, that's why. Being God, He gets to make the rules. Just 'cause you don't like those rules doesn't mean they're not the rules. My 2 year-old daughter doesn't understand why she has to wear a helmet when she rides the 4-wheeler with me and protests about it all the time, but just because she doesn't understand or like the rules I have established doesn't mean she gets to ignore them and still be allowed to ride the 4-wheeler. I don't force her to ride the 4-wheeler, but neither does she get to ride it unless she follows the rules. Surely the analogy isn't that hard to grasp. Telling God, "I don't understand or like the way You've set up the rules for redemption, therefore I'm not going to abide by them, but You still have to let me into Heaven" is kind of retarded.

Sorry, but this is one of the things that annoys me about religion. Why have christians written off the human mind completely? Why does human decency and common sense count for nothing? God didn't make any rules, mate. 99% of the human race has the decency and common sense to know what is a "good" thing and what is not. 99% of people don't refrain from murdering each other because God doesn't want them to. We don't murder each other for a million different logical reasons - what gives any one of us the right to end another's time on Earth? As meek as we humans are, we were given brains and the ability to think for ourselves, and to lean on "God" for every decision and action you make is just a piss-weak cop-out, imo.

 

As for people in Hell...I tend to steer away from the literal interpretation that insists Hell is a place of fire & brimstone and think it is more the total absence of God. I also reject the allegation that God sends people to Hell; God offers Himself to everyone, the price paid by the sacrifice of Christ, but people have the free will to choose or reject the gift. If, using your free will, you choose not to let God into your life, then you have chosen a life away from God. Hell is simply the consequences of your action, God giving you exactly what you wanted: life void of His presence. I believe this is Hell, when your soul is completely severed from the presence of the Creator, and once lost souls experience that absence, they will turn to God and, as I said in my previous posting, be reconciled to Him. It is not God punishing people to force them to Him...the punishment is self-inflicted, and the reconcilation will be by personal choice.

Fair enough. But let's be honest. If we all died and we go to the white light, pass through and suddenly God is standing there and he's all like, "Hey dude, so, turns out I'm actually real. You want to accept me into your life, or would you prefer to burn in hell with Satan?" I'm pretty sure we'd all be all like, 'Sure dude. Wow, I really didn't think you existed, but hey, I was wrong. Let's party.'

 

It's not that the idea of your christian God and heaven isn't a nice concept... but so was the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. I guess a lot of people just come to a stage in their life where they separate fantasy from fiction. In some ways it's kind of cool that religions are like keeping childhood fantasies alive... but on the same hand it's also, to me, only as realistic as keeping the Santa Claus dream alive. To actually go to a church and mould my life to what I think Santa Claus would want would make me hate myself and my life.

 

Again, to hammer my point home, just because you don't understand or like the way God has set things up doesn't mean you get to ignore it all, live the way you want to, and then get what you wanted from God in the end anyway. Life doesn't work that way, and neither does eternity.

So you mean that even if we accept God after we've died and we find out he does exist we still have to go to hell? I thought you said above that as long as you accept him when he offers it we do get to spend eternity with him? Are you saying he still sends us to hell either way?

 

Sorry mate, I have had a few drinks and am in good spirits, but I still don't get it. Personally, I think IF, and I say, IF there was a God that even remotely resembles your christian idea of God, he would surely appreciate the "normal" person's attempt at living their life as best they could. And if not - if he needed an otherwise "good" human being to go to church and follow a religion in order to get that all-important ticket into heaven, well, then he'd just be a inconsiderate c*nt.

 

And to be clear, you are saying that Donna would NOT get into heaven but Celeste would? So kill as many people as you want, just as long as you find Jesus before you die you'll be okay? Live your whole life as a decent human being but ignore religion and you're f*cked?

[Geoff]

Oh yeah,Geoff your pugs are so cute.

Thanks mate. Their faces remind me of candy because I always want to eat them.

[bangerdave]

I don't blame you,they are sooooooo cute,i'm in luvvvvv